Single channel O2

[Adger Smith]

Paul,
The water and a few other issues was what I was leading to when talking about tuning with DA. Have you ever run in a tree shrouded track? (does that bring to mind the Temple Tx track for anyone?) Trees make Oxygen... That throws off all the data collected at other tracks without abundant trees. Years ago Bristol was that way. It was an altitude track that was surrounded by trees. I Couldn't tune there. It had altitude, but wasn't responding to an altitude tune. Then Nickens showed me an oxygen meter. It has been many years since I was there, but I think the trees are long gone and it tunes like an altitude track, now.
As for the Detonation, it isn't a clean burn. All sorts of bad happenings in the combustion chamber. Rings knocked loose, oil gets in and is part of the combustion process, ect, ect. How can a sensor read it as a clean burn and tell you what the A/F ratio is. Remember that combustion is a chemical reaction. When Clean combustion takes place the chemicals present are not the same as what is present when there is detonation. (uncontrolled chemical reaction)

[tuffxf]

G,day Adger,
okay mate i understand what you are getting at with the detonation.
Thank you!
Cheers
Paul

[Charles Rainey]

Originally Posted by Adger Smith

Charles,
You are so right about using Data to do what you wanted to do. there is quite a lot of that going on. I'll never forget the first race where I helped tune a car with a RacePac....It was a long time ago. The owner was well healed and this was the first RP I had even seen. I had only read about them in ND.
That first night it taught us all a thing or two!! Racing wasn't the same, less cut and try, until 1991 when we first got the Super flow dyno... Talk about Data overload...
Well so much for the stroll down memory lane.
I do want to mention one other thing about using 02's to tune. Last year when I was doing Tech at the Engine Masters I noticed quite a few of engine guys tuned only with the 02.
You know that is O.K., but there was a problem with the fuel (that is another story) and most engines were running in detonation. You could watch and tell who the old school tuners were.
As a Tech Inspector I couldn't say anything to help the participants and it hurt me to watch the results of tuning an engine in detonation with a 02 sensor. If it detonates do yourself a favor and throw that data away. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the type sensor, but they can read some nasty nox when the engine detonates and give false readings. Learning to read plugs and crossreference data is important. OK, thanks for reading my ramble..... It's time to wash this nasty hone oil smell off and get in bed.

Adger
If we do not watch we are going to tell our age. I too have seen my world change when I built the Tech Edge out of Australia. Was the first O2 I had seen but it was the tip of the ice berg. And you are correct on data overload. My dyno has 46 channels to log data. Hell when I make a pull Im thru for the day just to look at data and make decisions. My brain aint got but one channel and most of the time it goes in the wrong direction. And man are you ever correct on detonation. No way will I tune by O2 alone. Very often I will not even make a pull on the dyno unless the weather makes a change.

[Charles Rainey]

Originally Posted by tuffxf

G,day Adger,
I'm not in you guys league at all, noticed a few posts ago about wanting to talk about air / da.
Would be interesting to keep this going i think!
used to race a petrol powered car over here in s/st and car would move .01/100 ft of da change, bet your life on it, was probably a bit fat but was very predictable.
Last major meeting of the 08/09 season that we won car ran on the numbers throughout qualifying, first round of racing had a red light in the other lane and run it through and ran a mile quicker, couldn't get my head around it untill i looked at the water grains, seemed to play a large part in it.
Have now converted to a carbed methanol deal and the water content seems to be a bigger thing than anything else?
When you were talking about watching guys tune with an 02 whilst having detonation what sort of things were you getting at? Just trying to learn here thanks

Charles - i have a daytona sensors wego3, what do you think of them? pm me if you like, the only thing that gets me a bit about it is you can't turn the logging on or off ( unless there is a feature i don't know about) and when you set the sample rate fine and have a car that you drive back to the pits, long return roads, stuck behind slow traffic etc when you go to down load it you find you have used up the recording time with the travelling back to the pits,
At small local tracks with a short return road it works ok.
Thanks!
Paul Dilley

Paul
I first thought of PM you but I decided that this should be a forum that we share and learn from. So what I will express is my observation and opinions. I hope some one can add to it and I learn even more. Yes I am aware that some people can have a dim view of someones else's opinion that differs from theirs but most of the time disagreements leads to more learning, and damn I need more learning. I am very aware, at my age, that my best learning is behind me and my most to learn is ahead of me but my ability to retain said information has decreased substantially. Thank goodness for notes. -=---Adger;;You must use the same honing oil that I do. The wife told me to strip off before I came In the house last nite. I really thought I was going to get lucky with my closthes off but she had my shower on when I got inside. HeHaw--
Yes I have tried the Daytona EgoIII or Wego or what ever it is and like every unit I have tried , some part I like well, some parts was Ok, and some parts I did not like. I never could find the resolution but I figure it must be a 12 bit by an accuracy of .1afr (again their number--I did not check). I did not like a total of 8000 bits. I want every data point and then I do with the data what I want. And as a result I dumped all data points into another data logger and finessed the data the way I wanted. I really like a unit to be accurate but what I want more than anything is one that will repeat time after time even after the sensor starts to slow down(which it will). That is one reason I want every data point. Then I can tell when the sensor is going away.. If you want more data I will try to help but there may be others on here that can help more than myself. Maybe I can learn from them. But let me get my note pad first. I did like it to run methanol. Great for that
charles

[tuffxf]

G,day Charles,
Thanks very much for the reply!
When you finish checking out that 14point 7 unit would you mind giving me some feedback and your opinion on it, just had a look on their site and by the look of it it does some nice things, would like to be able to log some other inputs as well as it looks like it has a lot longer recording time.
Thanks very much!
Paul Dilley

[Ed Wright]

Originally Posted by Michael Beard

FAST XFI. Currently running in Alpha-N, closed loop, Target A/F at 12.5. Got it to 13.3 on Run #3 of the weekend at MIR, and it wouldn't get out of it's own way.

Question is, is 13.3 to 13.2 a big jump, is 13.3 to 13.0 a big jump, or is 13.3 to 12.5 a big jump? How much is 1,000' DA change likely to affect the A/F ratio (ballpark)?

Subtract 8% at the RPM that is 13.3 to get 12.5. Some guys have 1000' tunes, 2000' tunes, etc. Many simply adjust fuel pressure. 1 to 2 psi per 1000' is pretty common.

[Signman]

Ed & Michael

Michael: Do you have internal Data Logging?

Ed: Used to run the Accell Gen 6 Alpha N. Drove me up the wall when moving from track to track. The best info I ever got was to have a map for each Baro reading you will see. Had some other issues with EFI and have since made wholesale changes for the better.

[Ed Wright]

Frank, I run mine in speed density mode. Almost nobody else does. I set my maps to 3 Kpa and 500 RPM break points. It runs off a different row when the baro changes. It takes a while to run it in that many different conditions, but once you have it pretty much adjusts it's self. Everybody else I know uses Alpha N. It's for sure simpler.

[Signman]

"Frank, I run mine in speed density mode. Almost nobody else does. I set my maps to 3 Kpa and 500 RPM break points. It runs off a different row when the baro changes. It takes a while to run it in that many different conditions, but once you have it pretty much adjusts it's self. Everybody else I know uses Alpha N. It's for sure simpler."

Am now using Fast XFI 2.0 Set it up on chassis dyno to run Speed Density. Last weekend tried Load Based Speed Density but will more likely go back this weekend. Your comment about needing to let it see different conditions over time makes sense.
Many are using Alpha N for simplicity but if you go on the right chassis dyno (tuner) your high gear map will be good from the start. All the runs and data logging necessary to get close will cost you more than the day on the dyno!!!

The issue am having a lean spike when it leaves (footbraking) Then it goes rich and then lean again. Tough deciding how much acceleration enrichment is too much or not enough, and with the short time it takes to go from stage RPM to stall to shift point, exactly which cells in the map need to be leaner and richer. Considering the delay that has to exist from the actually event, when the O2 sees the ex gas plus the electronic delays. On the data log the event is well under 2 seconds. Even with my slow s**t.

[Ed Wright]

Frank, when you play your log back, if you will pull up your fuel map, put it at the top, make it about half the screen size, then the log at the bottom, when you click the left arrow to scroll through it, there will be a "bubble" appear on the cell the ECU is looking at as you scroll through it. I don’t use load indexed speed density, that always goes to the top row, just like AlphaN. I mean regular speed density, Baro changes your manifold vacuum and MAP values. Load indexed will not. May as well use AlphaN as that, imho. On the dyno all you can do is tune for the weather that day. The Great Bend Kansas points race recently is the first time mine has used the 3rd row down in the map. Start out with 2% difference per row, dropping as you go down, in the top 3 or 4 rows of the fuel map for a starting place. Won't be all that far off. When you tune in different air, just tune the row at which it's looking. Your numbers will be bigger around the torque peak. That is normal. Leave the already tuned cells alone. Then log driving down the return road, with it warmed up. Shoot for about 14-1 to 14.5-1 there. Mine likes to leave in the mid-12s. Yours may be different. The return road tuning should also apply to AlphaN. That part can be done on a variable load dyno. A couple of feet of collector extension will make idle and low speed tuning accurate. Open collector will causes bogus lean numbers. Might look right, but hardly ever are.