64 Plymouth GT/EA in Ennis

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by chris3racing

I wish I had remembered this thread and printed it out before the East Coast Drag Times Reunion. Many of the historic cars, drivers and builders were there and I could have gotten some first hand opinions. I have heard all kinds of discussion about the steel hood with hinges, aluminum hoods with or without hinges and the troublesome fiberglass hood with a scoop.

Give up a couple of mopar secret I heard. Certains Mopar team would not park their car beside another similar car. NHRA didn't measure cars however, if you parked beside one the problem would be obvious.

Bolt at the bottom of the fender and a wrench in the car. Fenders were acid dipped so thin the fender would work loose during the run and had to be put back in position after each run.

I have caught a few with the wrong wheelbase when I was with NHRA back in 1974-75 and the NMCA races when RHS ran the program. Some in IHRA were real close to being bounced.

[Tony DePillo]

Yeah, I broke the 2nd gear face lug into 8 pieces. Mr. Long Sr. was there and took the gearbox back to his shop, fixed it and had it back to me Sat. morning. Thats what I call service. The new GF 4 gave us 80 trouble free runs. They are the best!
Put the spare box in only to find out I KO'd the ring and pinion as well. Thats stick shift racing.

[Stephen & Horace Johnson]

Originally Posted by Tony DePillo

Yeah, I broke the 2nd gear face lug into 8 pieces. Mr. Long Sr. was there and took the gearbox back to his shop, fixed it and had it back to me Sat. morning. Thats what I call service. The new GF 4 gave us 80 trouble free runs. They are the best!
Put the spare box in only to find out I KO'd the ring and pinion as well. Thats stick shift racing.

WOW..tony, I hate that for ya... I have to agree G-force has been really, really helpful with me and my street/strip mustang. See ya in Valdosta?


Stephen Johnson #2162
Horace Johnson #2167
SS/D 427 Ford Fairlane NHRA-IHRA

[Tony DePillo]

With no more 5.57 Dana Pro Gears, I think I'm done for the year. Looks loke we will be putting a 9" Ford in over the winter.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by James L Miller

First, I'd like to know who at IHRA will approve fiberglass replacements for aluminum body panels? I e-mailed IHRA about five years ago and was told it was NOT legal. I wish it was legal, fiberglass nose is what $2k? Aluminum nose, $20k? I'd be happy with just a glass hood and scoop and run steel fenders. They could make the fiberglass need to weigh as much as the aluminum to make things fair.

The steel and aluminum front end rules have changed back and forth over the last several years. For a while, the only legal 1964 Belvedere HT Hemi car was with aluminum (Steel was legal, but had to run at the aluminum weight). Then they added the single 4bbl (Circle Track) combo that had the aluminum front end (steel was legal and had to run at the aluminum weight). Somewhere along here they changed the 250 maximum added weight, so it allowed the crossram Race Hemi to run in something other than SS/B(A). Then NHRA came up the stupid idea that all Race Hemi cars had to have the aluminum to be LEGAL. Steel front end parts were ILLEGAL. Fortunately someone at Chrysler worked with NHRA to allow steel to be LEGAL again.

The current Classification Guide lists the following notes for MW and Hemi cars in 1964-5:

426 Race Hemi cars with 2 carbs were available from factory with either steel or aluminum components (fenders, hood & scoop) depending on plant supply at the time motor installed in car.

426 Race Hemi cars with 1 carb were available from factory with steel components (fenders & hood) with the addition of steel or aluminum hood scoop..

426 Wedge Al component car required to have aluminum hood with hood scoop, & both aluminum front fenders to be classified as aluminum component car

I doubt that Chrysler originally built the cars with all thread and wing nuts to hold the hoods on, but I've seen the photos of cars with them from "back-in-the-day".

I know this is an old thread but I’m trying to find out whatcars ran back circa 1969-71 in W/P=7.00 class (69=SS/D and 70-71 SS/C).


I’ve concluded they were Hemi cars (not Max Wedge) but theHemi-8v cars are up in the W/P=6.00 class (1964 cars) or W/P=6.50 class (1965),UNLESS:


1. They ran the Hemi-8v factoredat 500hp but at steel or heavy weight, or


2. They ran the aluminum(64) or A990 (65) weight, but with the NASCAR style Hemi-4v factored at 470hpor so.


Jim Miller’s text implies that first none of the above wasallowed, which makes sense, as these W/P=7.00 Hemi cars don’t appear until the1969-70-71 race years near as I can tell. Then Jim says first the cars ran atthe lighter weight (aluminum in 1964 cars, A990 in 1965 cars), but could runthe Hemi-4v.


The Hemi-8v in the heavier standard steel body cars would fitthe W/P=7.00 class but these combos are not listed in the current NHRA files.


So starting in 1969 race year, these cars win in the 7.00 classes, both 1964 and 1965 model cars.


Eg were these heavy Hemi-8v cars or light Hemi-4v cars?


McCandless, 1964 Dodge won SS/D=7.00 at 1969 Indy
Mancini 1964 Dodge, won SS/DA=7.00 1969 Indy
Wren, 1964 Plymouth, SS/DA=7.00 R/U at 1969 Indy
Costa, 1965 Plymouth, won SS/CA=7.00 at 1971 Indy

Mopar Steve on pg 2 says:
“Dave Wren's car was a steelnose Hardtop built for SS/DA in 1969. I spoke with Dave Koffel (who built thecar for Wren) in detail about this car. Wren broke in the finals and RonMancini was given the Runner Up finish at the Nationals that year with his SS/DAsteel nose Hemi '64 Dodge.

For what it's worth, I own the Mancini Dodge. I have researched the 4 steelnose Hemi's that were built for SS/CA and SS/DA in 1969 and can confirm theabove as fact.”

That would imply that theSS/DA=7.00 and SS/CA=7.00 cars (Mancini and Wren at least) were steel cars and therefore Hemi-8v and not Hemi-4v cars.

So when these cars ran back in 1969-71, were these cars “heavy” 8v Hemi or “light” 4v Hemi?


Did the rules get changed in 1969 so they could run?
Because the 1964-65 Hemi cars in the W/P=7.00 classes don't seem to appear until 1969.

[Steve Stasko]

Mancini, Wren, and McCandless were all steel nose, 12.5:1 Race Hemi's with two four barrels. There is a photo of Mancini's car from Dallas that year, where you can clearly see two Holley's on a crossram. The Mancini and McCandless cars were 440 Sedans, Wren's car was a Hardtop Fury.

Dave Koffel told me that he gave the direction for these cars to be built for these classes. He also stated that the car Herb built was slated to be driven by Vaughn Currie.

Chrysler submitted bogus paperwork to NHRA to get these cars legalized with those combinations, as none were ever built on the assembly line in those trims. The Mancini car was an original 318 car, the Wren car was a 383, and I am unsure of what Herb built the other car out of.

That being said, where did you find class results for Indy in 1969? I was always under the impression that there was no class contested, and that they took the fastest cars for the Eliminator that year?

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Steve Stasko

Mancini, Wren, and McCandless were all steel nose, 12.5:1 Race Hemi's with two four barrels. There is a photo of Mancini's car from Dallas that year, where you can clearly see two Holley's on a crossram. The Mancini and McCandless cars were 440 Sedans, Wren's car was a Hardtop Fury.

Dave Koffel told me that he gave the direction for these cars to be built for these classes. He also stated that the car Herb built was slated to be driven by Vaughn Currie.

Chrysler submitted bogus paperwork to NHRA to get these cars legalized with those combinations, as none were ever built on the assembly line in those trims. The Mancini car was an original 318 car, the Wren car was a 383, and I am unsure of what Herb built the other car out of.

That being said, where did you find class results for Indy in 1969? I was always under the impression that there was no class contested, and that they took the fastest cars for the Eliminator that year?

Steve,
Thanks so much for that quick reply- that clarifies it all.


Drag News 6 Sep 1969 pg13 & 20 lists:
"In Super Stock qualifying these cars came out on top"
Then for each class they list a car, a 2nd, (which I took as R/U), and an Alternate (which I'd assume was not the R/U but the car the winner had beat just before the R/U).
Kinda strangely worded so what you said makes sense.


Basically the Hemi cars won all the upper classes 1-2-3, and the 428CJ cars won all the lower classes 1-2-3, with just a couple 427 Fords and Chevys and Shirley Shahan's AMX mixed in there. That was when the 428 "Canadian CJ" heads first appeared and it showed. And then I got confused about all those Hemi combos.


x2 on the bogus paperwork back then - I've seen Ford's letter to NHRA stating that you could get a 427 Ford with auto trans. No way. Other than the very few T-Bolts and Lightweight Galaxies, they were all 4-speeds. But the 427 LoRiser was more competitive with an auto trans behind it, hence the Ford letter.

[PONTIAC'S REVENGE]

Originally Posted by Stewart Way

Dave
The rulebook does not allow the addition of scoops on a GT car. The GT section 9B says "The requirements and specifications for GT classes are the same as those for Super Stock classes - Section 9A - with the following exceptions:" and there are no exceptions for hoodscoops in the GT section 9B. There is, however, a phrase in SS Section 9A "Hood openings and/or hood scoops other than original equipment prohibited.". It would appear that those two statements eliminate the ability to add fresh air to a non fresh air car. Nothing I see keeps someone from running the fresh air engine in a non fresh air car , just no fresh air.

Yes but what about a fresh air body that was only built fresh air? Then install a non freshair engine! Do You dam it up hood scoop with non factory pieces or put a 6 cylinder hood on it? All 70 Pontiac TAs were fresh air all 2005 GrandAms were fresh air!
That's not Super Stock, cars need to keep original pieces. Right? Im getting busted for running all orginal pieces bcuz engine claimed didn't have fresh air and the Car is exclusively fresh air!

[Don Kennedy]

Originally Posted by Adger Smith

How does it work going the other way?? Like a 69 Vette body W/L-88 fresh air hood and a '66 327 engine that was not equipped with fresh air... would that be allowed in GT classes? It seems to me like the precedent is already set. It has already been done/allowed with the 69 Camaro running cowl induction hoods with non fresh air engine combos in Stock, SS and SS/GT. Is a Mopar and Fomoco "forward facing scoop" really a different application than some of the cowl or rear facing fresh air systems from other MFG's? It's all about cool clean air, no matter how you get it.
The way I read the rule book using a fresh air body with a non fresh air engine should be allowed.
Because:
1. When you pick a body for the GT class It says nothing in the rules about limiting the bodies to non fresh air applications.
2. When you pick an engine. It clearly says under engine:1 V-8 only; must be same make as body.Year optional. Engine must be listed in both the NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide and NHRA Blueprint Bulletins. Again it says nothing about limiting it to non Fresh Air engines

GT classes Mix combinations of bodies and engines. If it is allowed one way, it should be allowed going the other way. .

I really don't see that there is a problem with any "Body Package" that was produced by a MFG running any "Engine Combination" that was produced by the same MFG. as long as they are listed in the applicable NHRA guides.
Maybe we should go back as far as the inception of the GT Classes to see the "intent". Which I thought was to allow the mixing of SS engine combos and body combinations that weren't available with each other. Our resident GT historian Don Kennedy might be able to shine a little more light on the reason for GT Classes.

If I recall when I submitted the rules for the GT classes.the only change is the engine .now if the body came with a scoop then that was allowed , no body parts could not be moved from one car the old one ,to the new body now there are hoods that were made for special applications to be put on a certain body for racing as an example My Sunfire. Pontiac had a private company make hoods for road racing .then .the road racing endeavor did not materialize . Now Pontiac is no longer in business . There is a lot of examples like this by the manufacturers I have a letter saying the Hood was made for Pontiac from the main Pontiac executive that was involved with the racing

[Tom P]

Reading through all ten pages here... Interesting stuff about the aluminum front end cars. And i share Tony DePillo's opinion of Leonard Long. I got the grand tour of his shop when i showed up off the street on the way to Beaver Springs. What a great guy.

Is the Dave Wren car the one Mike Booker was running in SS/BA for many years?