Stick car, too much clutch?

[joespanova]

Put just enough base in it to launch the car , and throw in a little c'weight. Thats alI do.........I dont play around with c'weight , dont mess with base much either. Watching a playback tach can sometimes tell you if you need more weight as the needle will bounce around. With my Nash 5 speed , 23 degree 355 , at 3000 lbs Ive run 9.60s at 138 n change.........must not be that far off........but the bottom line is this , without a data logger and historical logs you're going to work yourself to death playing with that clutch.

I also want to add , my advice is for clutch assisted stuff.........and breakage? Rarely

[Troy Henderson]

Spend your money on a data logger you can tie into the input and life will be much easier. We used to tune our cars by feel and using a video camera but that's just frustrating with all the affordable technology out there now.

Soft Loks are great but if you're looking to upgrade and don't wan't to spend the coin on the Advanced stuff hit up the Comp Eliminator guys for some of their used stuff.

Shocks are critical on our small tire cars on leaf springs and may help you also depending on what you have but a ladder bar car isn't as violent.

[69Cobra]

Originally Posted by Rory McNeil

Well, it is pretty consistent, and in 12 years, the only real breakage has been knocking a few teeth off 3rd gear a few years ago. I need to pull the trans to fix an oil leak, so I guess I will remove the counterweight at that time. I never really used any counterweight before this clutch freshen up. My tach is a playback model, but it has no provisions for driveshaft RPM. I`d really be suprised if I have "way too much" clutch static though, as when I do encounter flare up on the 3-4, or noticable slippage in 4th, I can normally cure the slippage with 1/2 turn increase of static. And as I mentioned in the first post, rolling on the throttle on the return road at 2500-3000RPM will result in noticable slipping. I do normally shift it clutchless. One other thing I should add, don`t know if its really relevent or not, but Hyatt did the last clutch rebuild, and instead of the normal .280" disc McLeod supplies, Tim uses a .380" thick disc, and I have the pressure plate shimmed up .100" to compensate for the added thickness. And lastly Kris, since you also run a FE, have you had any issues with the pilot bearing "falling out" of the crankshaft? I use the ball bearing pilot, and it kinda sticks out of the crank a ways, and is not a very tight press fit, and has been found just sitting on the input shaft a couple of times . I last installed the pilot bearing with red Loctite, I`ll take a look when I pull the trans out in the near future.

Yes for some reason I've had the same issues with pilot bearings. Matter of fact the only "breakage" I've had on my jerico was from the pilot bearing coming out of the crank which let the input do whatever it wanted. It ended up breaking the back of the input where the snap ring goes and swelled the front bearing retainer to the point that I couldn't remove the tranny because it wouldn't slide out of the T.O. bearing. I was thinking about using some hi temp silicone to help hold it in their the next time. Let me know how the loc tite did for ya.

[Rory McNeil]

Originally Posted by 69Cobra

Yes for some reason I've had the same issues with pilot bearings. Matter of fact the only "breakage" I've had on my jerico was from the pilot bearing coming out of the crank which let the input do whatever it wanted. It ended up breaking the back of the input where the snap ring goes and swelled the front bearing retainer to the point that I couldn't remove the tranny because it wouldn't slide out of the T.O. bearing. I was thinking about using some hi temp silicone to help hold it in their the next time. Let me know how the loc tite did for ya.

About 6 or 7 years ago, I had a very simillar experiance with my Fairmont. Unknown to me, I guess the pilot had fallen out for quite a while, and on 1 pass, when I pushed in the clutch pedal for 3rd gear, the engine started shaking terribly. I guess with the bearing not doing its job, the input shaft was free to move up and down, and eventually the disc cracked around the hub, and allowed the hub section to break away from the rest of the disc. The outer section got all caught up inside the scattershield, snapped off the starter nose cone, deformed the bellhousing, and like you, when I went to remove the trans, it only came part way out, because the bearing retainer had become bell mouthed, and wouldn`t allow the retainer to slip thru the throw out bearing. The bellhousing, and everything inside it were ruined.Not a pretty sight!

[69Cobra]

Originally Posted by Rory McNeil

About 6 or 7 years ago, I had a very simillar experiance with my Fairmont. Unknown to me, I guess the pilot had fallen out for quite a while, and on 1 pass, when I pushed in the clutch pedal for 3rd gear, the engine started shaking terribly. I guess with the bearing not doing its job, the input shaft was free to move up and down, and eventually the disc cracked around the hub, and allowed the hub section to break away from the rest of the disc. The outer section got all caught up inside the scattershield, snapped off the starter nose cone, deformed the bellhousing, and like you, when I went to remove the trans, it only came part way out, because the bearing retainer had become bell mouthed, and wouldn`t allow the retainer to slip thru the throw out bearing. The bellhousing, and everything inside it were ruined.Not a pretty sight!

Yep. All over a $2 part. I've even taken a flat chisel and scared up the inside of the crank to give it teeth so to speak and that still didn't keep it in there very tight. I'm going the silicone route next time.

[james schaechter]

We have used a sealed bearing in the end of the crank on our Chevys. You need to either cut a snapring groove to hold it or machine a ring that has enough crush to hold it. We did that in our modified engines as well and have never had a failure. One other pilot bearing that I tried is the kevlar one. I put one in a 327 and have had no issues with it in two seasons of running. Put green loctite on it and it stayed. I noticed many diesel trucks had a kevlar pilot bearing so they must be spec to severe use. Anyway, I think ram and others make them. We bought ours at the carshopinc.
For what it is worth, there are some great options on clutches out there. Yes a data logger is really needed or you will have a harder time really getting exactly what you want.
I have run all kinds of clutches and have found that lighter is quicker, but only if you can figure out how to slip it enough to keep it from bogging and still not drive through the clutch down track.
I can't tell you how many times we had pullednthe light stuff out and would put the heavier clutch back in becausenit was quicker. Only until we stuck with it and made ouselves figure it out did we finally discover what it needed to be right. Only testing on your specific car can lead you to discover that. Even the best clutch person can only advise you enough to get you close. You will have to do some good testing.
I will say that to me, the advanced stuff is the easiest to tune counterweight with. It just seems to do what I think it will do.
I know many slam Jeff because he comes off like he is a sales manager for youngblood, but it is an easy clutch to work with. I have said this before, I have never bought a new one from him either.
An advanced clutch set on kill will eat some disc. When we are not interested in the quickest run, but are just set fornthe eliminator and don't want to worry about slipping too much, we leave counterweight alone and just put some more base in. It bogs a bit, but is very consistant.
Another thing hou might consider if you feel that you are hitting it too hard, is to try a smaller disc. You tuning window might be smaller, but you could try this for the cost of a custom size disc.

[Sean Marconette]

For pilot or any other bearing, if you need an odd size, check into IBT or someone similar. The bearing manufacturers have many sizes to chose from, that may fix the issues with not being a snug fit. If you have a spare input shaft, I would recommend taking it with you. They may also have a repair sleeve for the OD. Or you could take shim stock and make your own sleeve.

Sean

[Rory McNeil]

I already use a sealed ball bearing for a pilot. (after learning very early on that a stock bronze one gets chewed up really quickly!)m The problem with the FE Ford is that the pilot bearing fits into a recess at the end of the crank, and sticks out 1/4-3/8" of an inch, so no way to cut for a snap ring retainer. Kris, I think that the Loctite would be a better attempt than RTV silicone. I have used the Loctite in the past, with OK results (so far), but I don`t leave the trans in for 2 full seasons anymore either. If I get a semi warm day this weekend, I`ll pull the trans and take a look to see if the bearing is still in place.

[Jeff Lee]

Any clutch will work. You just have to be honest about what your goals are. You also have to be honest about your abilities & limitations. Speed cost money; how fast do you want to go? That hasn't changed since the first drag race. Speed costs time also. If your not willing to pull the bell housing off to try something new, then your just spittin' in the wind.
Any clutch can be made to perform better. Or more consistent. Or longer lasting. If you can obtain 2 out of 3, your doing good. Seldom will you see 3 out of 3. But there is no magic pill or magic tune. What works on one car is not going to work on another. May be close, but it wont be 100%.
If a guy wants a stick for fun and bracket race super consistency is paramount, buy the cheaper parts that require less maintenance and less tuning. Throw in a single or dual disk diaphragm and be done with it. But even when I ran a McLeod Mag-Force Dual 8", I still had the bell housing off all the time shimming it up for more slip. When I ran the McLeod Soft-Lock, I still had some pretty fast times, still pulling the bell housing off countless times. And if I had to say one thing along the learning curve that was the biggest loser, it was the no CW theory. My McLeod became really fast with zero turns in it, some CW and a lot more RPM off the line. It also became more consistent.
But since this is Class Racing ~ Stock & Super Stock Tech, I'm the type that believes that Class car owners should strive for the very best performance; not "good enough". I've been down the clutch road and my money & performance are hooked with the A team (so I don't look like a promoter & upset the admin). I use the formula 1320 / MPH and it tells me who really knows what they are talking about when they brag about their ET & MPH and how well they think they have the clutch dialed in. And yes, those that meet or beat the formula do not always have an Advanced unit. But a lot of them surely do. And here's another tip. There are a lot of racers that have an A unit and are doing well. But if you ask them what they have, they may steer you in another direction. But that's the nature of any competitive sport.

[Rory McNeil]

Well, this is my bracket car, and I normally go to 12-14 races a year, every year, so consistancy and reliability are at least as important as absolute lowest ET possible. That said, Jeff, using your 1320 formula, my car seems to pretty much hit its potential pretty well dead on, even with my "less than ideal" clutch setup. Actually. if you watch that last pass on the video, it even ran a bit quicker than the formula shows. As I mentioned earlier, with the stock floor and trans tunnel, removing the bellhousing requires pulling the engine, and frankly, I`m just too lazy to do that on a regular basis. If running too much clutch can continue to give me a couple of years on a disc, maybe I`ll sacrifice that 5 hundreths or so.