Stick verses Automatic (Stock Eliminator)

[Jesse Knapp]

Since I have only raced automatics by footbrake and transbrake, I have no experience with a stick setup. Which one is the quicker? I do know a stick will mph more with identical et as an automatic. For example, everyone knows Bobby De Armonds camaro and how quick it is. Suppose he would swap it to a stick setup, would it go quicker, slower, or about the same, with a good stick driver? Whick one would 60' better? Thanks in advance for an answer. Jesse

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by Jesse Knapp

Since I have only raced automatics by footbrake and transbrake, I have no experience with a stick setup. Which one is the quicker? I do know a stick will mph more with identical et as an automatic. For example, everyone knows Bobby De Armonds camaro and how quick it is. Suppose he would swap it to a stick setup, would it go quicker, slower, or about the same, with a good stick driver? Whick one would 60' better? Thanks in advance for an answer. Jesse

The main factors that would determine the performance is the clutch and suspension set up. Many times you will see a stick car put more MPH than an automatic, however, the auto will be quicker in ET.

[greg fulk]

now then this is just in the 5.0 Mustangs I've been around but...a stick is about .15 quicker...that being same weight same gear...but they "feel" alot faster!

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by greg fulk

now then this is just in the 5.0 Mustangs I've been around but...a stick is about .15 quicker...that being same weight same gear...but they "feel" alot faster!

Yes, the 5.0 will be quicker due to the engine size, short stroke and short rod. Look at the class records for the higher classes and you will see the difference when running a big block or an engine with lots of power.

[Jeff Lee]

For once I have to disagree w/ SSdiv6. For the purpose of this discussion, I am talking about the use of adjustable base pressure with adjustable counter-weight sintered-iron drag race clutches. And I'm assuming the vehicle's suspension and chassis are capable of transfering the HP / TQ to the track effectively.
A stick, if using the proper clutch will be quicker, regardless of engine size, all else being equal. It will MPH faster due to the lack of HP loss in the transmission (assuming a "racing" transmission such as Jerico or G-Force). The problem is antiquated theory's on clutch management which are amplified on higher HP applications, i.e., big-blocks.
A properly designed clutch will allow the user to launch at an RPM equal or nearly equal to the shift RPM (example: 6500 RPM launch, 7000 RPM shift). That will lead to the lowest ET as opposed to the racer forced into launching at a low launch RPM (example: 4500 RPM launch, 7000 RPM shift). The reason I said "forced" into lower RPM launches is that clutch'es that are set-up to operate on heavy base pressure and / or counter-weights must launch at a lower RPM than the engine is capable in order to retain traction.
Launches at higher RPM with proper clutch management will allow the engine to accelerate at a quicker rate while at the same time not pull down the engine down as drastically as what is seen in a low RPM launch (sometimes alleviated by setting the car to spin the slicks).
Typically, a stick will 60' slower than an auto trans vehicle. That's because the converter multiplies torque. I believe as you see more lite-weight clutch assemblies used by those that know how to adjust them, you will see more favorable comparisons between both transmissions and their 60' times. You should know 60' times with a stick car can be skewed by the point the 1-2 shift is made (an improperly timed 1-2 shift can really mess up a run). More realistic comparisons should be made comparing the 330' increments.
My favorite math formula is 1320 / MPH = optimum ET. It's simple and it's accurate. Works on both auto trans and manual trans. Those that have the clutch figured out will be right on. Those that really have the clutch / chassis figured out will exceed those expectations. My present car and previous other's fall in line exactly. John Duzac recently set the D/S record .08 quicker than the formula predicts with a 1.38 60' time. I'd be willing to bet that isn't far from the D/SA record holder's 60' times!
I'm sure there will be disagreement...so let's hear it!

[SSDiv6]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

For once I have to disagree w/ SSdiv6. For the purpose of this discussion, I am talking about the use of adjustable base pressure with adjustable counter-weight sintered-iron drag race clutches. And I'm assuming the vehicle's suspension and chassis are capable of transfering the HP / TQ to the track effectively.
A stick, if using the proper clutch will be quicker, regardless of engine size, all else being equal. It will MPH faster due to the lack of HP loss in the transmission (assuming a "racing" transmission such as Jerico or G-Force). The problem is antiquated theory's on clutch management which are amplified on higher HP applications, i.e., big-blocks.
A properly designed clutch will allow the user to launch at an RPM equal or nearly equal to the shift RPM (example: 6500 RPM launch, 7000 RPM shift). That will lead to the lowest ET as opposed to the racer forced into launching at a low launch RPM (example: 4500 RPM launch, 7000 RPM shift). The reason I said "forced" into lower RPM launches is that clutch'es that are set-up to operate on heavy base pressure and / or counter-weights must launch at a lower RPM than the engine is capable in order to retain traction.
Launches at higher RPM with proper clutch management will allow the engine to accelerate at a quicker rate while at the same time not pull down the engine down as drastically as what is seen in a low RPM launch (sometimes alleviated by setting the car to spin the slicks).
Typically, a stick will 60' slower than an auto trans vehicle. That's because the converter multiplies torque. I believe as you see more lite-weight clutch assemblies used by those that know how to adjust them, you will see more favorable comparisons between both transmissions and their 60' times. You should know 60' times with a stick car can be skewed by the point the 1-2 shift is made (an improperly timed 1-2 shift can really mess up a run). More realistic comparisons should be made comparing the 330' increments.
My favorite math formula is 1320 / MPH = optimum ET. It's simple and it's accurate. Works on both auto trans and manual trans. Those that have the clutch figured out will be right on. Those that really have the clutch / chassis figured out will exceed those expectations. My present car and previous other's fall in line exactly. John Duzac recently set the D/S record .08 quicker than the formula predicts with a 1.38 60' time. I'd be willing to bet that isn't far from the D/SA record holder's 60' times!
I'm sure there will be disagreement...so let's hear it!

Jeff, I just did not want to make a dissertation on my comments. What I was trying to say is that the advent of new clutches as the ones sold by Rob at Advanced Clutches, has been an equalizer against the automatic cars, especially, the high powered cars. Look at the current records; in the higher class cars, most of the automatics cars have quicker ET's than the stick cars.

However, most of the MPH records, go to the stick cars. This is the same story that took place in Comp Eliminator many years ago with the stick vs. auto cars and the reason why in the Altered Comp classes got split to a specifc stick and auto classification. Don't get me wrong, I love stick cars too. In regards to suspension, the set up for a stick car is more critical than an automatic car.

[Rory McNeil]

My 85 Mustang Stocker is a "stick only" combo, so I can`t really comment about the stick vs auto there, but I can give you the details about the differance with my bracket car. It`s a 3100 lb Ford Fairmont with a fairly mild 428FE. It does have ladder bars and 14 x32 tires, so I know any comparison to a Stocker is usless, but it could apply to a S/Ser. Anyhow, I ran the car for years with a decent C6 3 speed auto (trans brake, 8" convertor (5200 WOT on the brake), needle bearings thruout etc)and the best the car ran was 10.55 @126 mph, with a 1.42 60 foot. About 7 years ago, I wanted to run our local stickshift association, so I replaced the auto with a Jerico DR4 and a McLeod "Soft Lok" clutch. I changed nothing on the engine or chassis, other than going from 4.56`s to 4.88`s, in anticipation of no convertor slippage. It took a few passes to get used to the stick (the quickest 4 speed I had driven before was my 12.4ET 69 Mach 1 street car), but by the end of the first weekend with the stick, I was running solid 10.2`s @130mph. Last year I tried some different gear ratios in the Jerico, and with some clutch tuning, I have since gone a best of 10.03 @132 mph, best 60 foot is 1.29.Will I ever consider putting an automatic back in the car? Uh,....NO!

[Tim H]

Rory, Interesting story, just one question, how consistent is the car now with the stick versus before with the automatic? You said it was a Bracket car and sticks generally dont go rounds as easy as automatics do.... Be honest ...

[L79racer]

I was thinking of going over to an auto from a stick but, now I have to re think this after reading Rorys' post. I would hate to loose 4 to 6 mph and almost a 1/2 second. Has anybody else gone from a stick to an auto and lost et and mph?

[Bob Gullett]

I ran my Nova (327-275)with a Powerglide for 20 years before changing to a stick. It uses a Jerico with an Advanced Clutches dual 7 inch clutch. While I cannot give an accurate difference between the 2 combinations, the stick was worth I figure 25 hundreths to 3 tenths and approx 3 MPH.