Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

[oldskool]

OK ya'll, I've been encouraged to start my own thread. So here goes. I reckin my story started way back around 1963 or so when the GTO was born. A popular newspaper in my area started running ads about the GTO. And many of the ads would have a Tiger in 'em. Well, it was love at 1st sight, I guess you could say. I collected all the ads I could find and started covering the walls in my room with 'em. Within a couple of years my room had GTO wallpaper ! I also bought the 45rpm record of the GTO song and played it over and over til my family was tired of hearing it.



I suppose you could say that from that time on I was a "Pontiac Freak". There was no doubt in my mind that I would someday drive a GTO of my own. I remember examples of the 1st 3 year model Goats in my home town. The 1st was a red '64, then a light blue '65, then a black '66--all 4-speeds with 3-dueces. I watched 'em cruise around town lookin real cool and then burnin rubber when the law wasn't lookin. Hey, a schoolmate even borrowed his brothers '65 and took some of us guys for a spin. It was awesome ! I'd never ridden in a car that would burn rubber and bark 'em again when shifting. Yeah, the Musclecar era was a great time to be a young gearhead.

Anyhow, fast forward to '69. I was going to college and working all the hours I could at a nearby Pizza Inn. I was only making $1.50 an hour. That's right-- a buck fifty. But you have to understand, things were a lot cheaper back then. So, since I was makin the big bucks, I decided it was time for me to have my very own GTO. So I went down to the Pontiac Dealer to order one. They had a Judge in the showroom. I really liked everything about it, except the color. To me it looked like "Halloween Orange". I told the salesman that I was not about to ride around in no orange car--not even a GTO !

So, I was gonna order one in a different color. But in early '69 that was the only color they came in. Later in the year, other colors were available. But I didn't know that then. So I asked the salesman if I could get the Judge engine and stuff in a reg GTO. He said I could get everything except the rear deck spoiler and the Judge stripes and decals.

So, I ordered it--silver with black int, bench seat with fold down arm rest(so my girlfriend could sit closer to me ), 400 Ram Air 3 engine, close ratio 4-speed, 3.90 posi rear, radio with a rear speaker, and nothing else. Less than 6 weeks later, I was driving down the street past the Pontiac dealer when I met a truck load of new Pontiacs coming down the street. And there it was, in the middle of the bottom row, my silver GTO !

So, I did a "bat turn" and followed the truck to the dealership. I sat and watched as they unloaded all the new Pontiacs. I went in to talk to the salesman. He said they would have to service it out in the shop before I could leave with it. So, we took care of the paperwork, and soon they were thru with it and parked it right outside the showroom door. I hadn't ordered any special wheels, so it came with some rinky dink hub caps. I took 'em off and gave 'em to the salseman.

Then I got in MY GTO and drove off down the street. I'll never forget that feeling as long as I live. That car was a source of great pleasure for me that day and for many years thereafter. Yeah, I love Pontiacs ! So you guys will just have to excuse me if I seem a little prejudice and talk mostly about Pontiacs. And it makes no difference at all, that Pontiacs are no longer made. The last 400 engine came in a '79 model. So except for the little 301, that was it for Pontiac powered cars.

But, because of aftermarket parts, you can now build a Pontiac engine without a single GM part. NHRA even allows many of these parts in Stockers and Super Stockers.

[Danny Ashley]

So what year firebird/engine combo are you wanting to build? Stock or Super Stock?

[oldskool]

OK, that 1st post was just a little background info. Now for the thread. Both TJ(my wife) and I began racing in Stock class. We both won quite a few races. But, then all the small tracks in our area started running nothing but bracket.

I'd noticed that the stockers today are running at least 2 sec quicker than we did back then. That got my curiosity up. So I started doing a little research to see if I could find out how they are able to go so quick. The HPP mag article about Scott Burton's B/SA '70 RA4 Bird, answered a lot of my questions. But it also brought up a lot of other questions.

Then I found this site. But most of you guys were using terms that I was not familiar with. I could tell that you guys were just taking for granted that all the other guys on the site knew all the terminology. Anyhow, I snooped around long enuff to come across Brent's '68 Firebird thread. I was very interested in it, because he was building the same combo TJ raced, way back yonder. And, he was trying to do it on a budget.

While searching for other Pontiac builds, I ran across Mr. Billy's $1000 Pontiac 301 thread. That really picked up my interest. I had never even heard the term "dime rocket". I could tell that most of the quick Stockers today are high dollar builds. So to read about running under the index on a small budget, was a fun read. Anyhow, it got me to thinking about what I could build, on a small budget, that could possibly run the index.

Now understand that my local tracks don't run class--only bracket. But they've started having a division race near Shreveport, which is about a 2 hour pull. I may never even try to build another Stocker. But it's fun to think about ! So, I decided to dig into it and see just exactly what it would take to build a low buck Pontiac Stocker that would run it's index.

I figure that even if I never actually do the build, this thread will be very interesting, at least to me, and might provide some good info that will help somebody else who is considering a build themselves.

I know that some of you guys don't reveal your Stocker secrets. I'm OK with that. But I'll be asking a LOT of questions about exact details. So, for all you guys who have the experience and the time, and are willing to share, I'd appreciate your input and opinions !

One thing I'd like to request is that when you mention a particular part, that you also mention aprox cost(since this is a budget build thread)where to buy it, including a link or contact info. I say this because, I have been unable to find a source for some of the parts that I've seen mentioned. When I see a part I'm interested in, I like to be able to click on a quick link and learn more about it--price, specs, etc.

If I had plenty of $$, I'd just buy a new motorhome, trailer and a competitive Pontiac and go racing. But since that doesn't seem to be the case right now, I'll settle for this budget build thread. So there is no reason to say, you get what you pay for, and suggest the most expensive parts, for this particular build. Instead, it will have to consist of barely get by, cheaper stuff. I realize that some would not even consider racing if they could not have the best of everything and run close to a sec or more under. But then there are the rest of us who just love to race, with whatever we can afford. TJ and I have won lots of races with our low budget Pontiacs. So, I know how rewarding it can be.

Lookin forward to learning a lot from this thread. And I'd like to thank ya'll in advance for providing helpful info from your experience. And for any who may be considering a build, please feel free to ask questions on this thread, so we all can learn from it.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Danny Ashley

So what year firebird/engine combo are you wanting to build? Stock or Super Stock?

No decisions made. This thread is to explore possible combos, that might possibly be built to run the index or just slightly under, on a small budget, if such is possible. I think ya'll call 'em "dime rockets" ?

I have a '74 Ventura 2 bracket car now. It has a mild, iron head 455, TH400, 4.10 gears. Runs 7.30's 1/8 mile, footbrakin . But Bill Rink and another record holder got the hp factor up too high to use the '74 GTO body.

I also have a '68 bracket Bird under construction. It has a mild 455 with 6x heads, TH400, 9" converter, and 4.56 gears. Should run about a 7 flat 1/8 mile. I assume that would be a mid 11 sec 1/4 mile ET.

Now this motor would not be legal in a '68 Bird, except in GT/SS. But, a similar engine would work in '71-'76 Birds and A-bodies. To run the Bird in Stock, I'd need a 330hp 400. But Brent has already done a thread on his build with that combo. And I think the hp factor is too high on the 350HO in that model.

[Dwight Southerland]

Have you considered the Ventura 350?

[Jim Hanig]

Listen to Mr Southerland, You need to get the best stuff you can.The cheap wont be cheap in the long run.

[Alan Nyhus]

Geez....if you've got a 74 Ventura that you're already racing, you're halfway there. Make sure and use Dwight's classification guide for any easy way to look at combos and engine specs. -Al

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Default.aspx

[oldskool]

OK, lookin at it from a low budget standpoint, I need to make use of the parts I have, as much as possible. So, what I have the most of is 6x heads. They came on 350's 400's and according to NHRA even on some '76 455's.

So, using the 6x 455 that I already have built, I could run it in any of a long list of Pontiac bodies, from a TA in H/SA to a 5000 lb + wagon in Q/SA.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2107

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2107

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

Now here's where the hp factors come in. The '75 455 had 5c heads, according to NHRA. Well, they are almost identical to the 6x heads. But the '75 455 is factored 10hp lower than the '76. I gather that you would have to carry aprox 100 lbs more weight, which would = about a tenth difference in ET. Is this correct ?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2098

And in '75, according to classracerinfo.com the 455 was not available in the TA. And cars were real heavy back then. The lightest body I could use, weighed over 4000lbs.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2098

The only advantages I can see to using a '76 TA body, besides the fact that they use 6x heads, is that they look a lot better and may be a little more aerodynamic than the '75 A-bodies, big cars and wagons. But is that worth the 10hp penalty ?

One advantage I can see for using one of the big cars is the purchase price of a good body. Most have been crushed long ago. But, if you can find one, they should be a lot cheaper than a good, '76 TA body.

So, for some of you guys who have played these hp factor and weight games, what do you see as the best option of all these '75 & '76 455 combos ?

[oldskool]

Now, here's something I found interesting. All the info I can find says that the 455 was available in late '75 TA's. I even found some pics of a restored 455 HO '75 TA.

Now they were HO in words only. There was absolutely nothing different in the TA engine and a 455 wagon engine. But anyhow, I wonder why the classracerinfo site doesn't show that it was indeed available in a '75 TA ?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2098

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

Have you considered the Ventura 350?

Yes, the 350 was the only Pontiac V8 available in the Ventura, including the '74 GTO. But after Bill Rink ran so quick with it, NHRA hit it with big hp refactor. It's up to 277hp now. He switched over to SS with the car and has done quite well with it.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2088

Basically the same engine is only 250hp in '77. That engine has been raced quite successfully.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=763