HOME FORUM RULES CONTACT
     
   
   

Go Back   CLASS RACER FORUM > Class Racer Forums > Stock and Super Stock


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-20-2019, 01:42 PM   #11
Hacksaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 832
Likes: 148
Liked 269 Times in 148 Posts
Default Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM

Everybody knows that the Comp index of 8.75 is at least 1.5 tenths too tough, everybody but NHRA. With NHRA favoring the FI cars in SS it won't be long before you won't see a conventional carb combo make the show at Indy.
Hacksaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2019, 04:23 PM   #12
Dan Fahey
VIP Member
 
Dan Fahey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,113
Likes: 1,073
Liked 174 Times in 109 Posts
Default Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM

What changes can be done to the car engines to compete in Comp ?

Does not Comp rules allow a few more mods to improve performance?

D
Dan Fahey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2019, 07:33 PM   #13
G Schenck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Harahan, La.
Posts: 521
Likes: 41
Liked 81 Times in 35 Posts
Default Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Fahey View Post
What changes can be done to the car engines to compete in Comp ?

Does not Comp rules allow a few more mods to improve performance?

D
The only change is they have to run Sunoco fuel.

Greg
G Schenck is offline   Reply With Quote
Liked
Old 08-20-2019, 09:06 PM   #14
Ben Holt
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 123
Likes: 2
Liked 95 Times in 29 Posts
Default Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Fahey View Post
What changes can be done to the car engines to compete in Comp ?

Does not Comp rules allow a few more mods to improve performance?

D
There are no engine mods allowed for AH/SM versus SS/AH. The engine/car rules are lifted verbatim from SS. That is why I don't see any real performance gains by entering the car in Comp versus SS.
Now if you entered the car as an A/SM or A/SMA then yes, you are allowed changes, but the iron headed combo is at a distinct disadvantage on the 8.45 ish index for those classes....
Ben Holt is offline   Reply With Quote
Liked
Old 08-21-2019, 01:21 PM   #15
Tom Broome
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 136
Likes: 78
Liked 70 Times in 39 Posts
Default Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Holt View Post
There are no engine mods allowed for AH/SM versus SS/AH. The engine/car rules are lifted verbatim from SS. That is why I don't see any real performance gains by entering the car in Comp versus SS.
Now if you entered the car as an A/SM or A/SMA then yes, you are allowed changes, but the iron headed combo is at a distinct disadvantage on the 8.45 ish index for those classes....
Okay, I have lots of questions.

I understand Comp "can" be a teardown class, but considering all of the fuss about valve cover location/studs in SS/AA a while back, there aren't ANY modifications that might slide through in Comp? Or do you anticipate going through a full Super Stock teardown after qualifying for Comp? That's the only way Comp racers are ensuring that AH/SM is adhering to "engine/car rules are lifted verbatim from SS", not tweaked for performance here and there.


Truth is, Comp racers got tired of new classes getting a "gift" index and AH/SM and FS/SM suffered because of it. I see where you mentioned that the index should be where the top running cars should be able to run .65 under right off the bat, really? Yet you propose a 9.05 index? 9.05 minus .65 equals 8.40 by my math, Wolkwitz ran what, 8.44, at the Gators? I suppose that .61 under your proposed index right off the bat wouldn't be a gift, right?
Do you need to run .65 under to win Comp? How far under did Bruno have to run at Topeka? Does Rampy need to run .61 under to be competitive?


If the SS/AH cars really wanted to run Comp, they needed to show up at Divisional Races to run Comp. Those performance standards would give them some leverage for a better index. How many have done that this year? Or do you only expect cars to show up at Divisionals that have a chance to win? If you show up at a Divisional to get grade points in SS/AH do you still run the car like a "mini pro stock"?


Now, is the current AH/SM index too hard at 8.75? I would agree, that's too fast. What should it be? Slower, but how much? At 3170 lbs AH/SM is 7.14 pounds per cubic inch, A/SM is 7.5 pounds per inch....with an 8.45 index. For those who don't do math, that's .39 heavier and .30 faster than the "too fast" AH/SM index! Maybe A/SM needs an adjustment too! Is there a SM class with an index close to your proposed 9.05 index? Oh, D/SM is. That's 9.5 pounds per inch with little carburetors and head limitations, you could add only 1050 pounds to get to the index you want. The only precise way to determine the correct index for AH/SM is with more performance data. The only way to generate that data is?

Last edited by Tom Broome; 08-21-2019 at 02:36 PM.
Tom Broome is offline   Reply With Quote
Liked
Old 08-21-2019, 02:05 PM   #16
Dan Bennett
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 347
Likes: 539
Liked 316 Times in 72 Posts
Default Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM

While SS/AH is a very cool class and one I always pay attention to, the fact that the cars can go directly into Comp with no changes says everything about what the NHRA has allowed S/S to become.


Yes, I know they are a special case as one of the strongest combos ever to come out of Detroit. And yes, I remember that some Modified cars were put into SS a while back.


But it seems like the changes were made just to be the easiest possible for the NHRA and not because they made sense in view of what the the eliminator was meant to be in the first place.
Dan Bennett is offline   Reply With Quote
Liked
Old 08-21-2019, 07:28 PM   #17
Dan Fahey
VIP Member
 
Dan Fahey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,113
Likes: 1,073
Liked 174 Times in 109 Posts
Default Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM

Quote:
Originally Posted by G Schenck View Post
The only change is they have to run Sunoco fuel.

Greg
Is that an improvement?
Dan Fahey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2019, 08:39 PM   #18
Tom Broome
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 136
Likes: 78
Liked 70 Times in 39 Posts
Default Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Fahey View Post
Is that an improvement?
I'm not sure anybody has ever used SR-18 and improvement in the same sentence.
Tom Broome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2019, 09:15 PM   #19
Dyno
Senior Member
 
Dyno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 858
Likes: 904
Liked 513 Times in 171 Posts
Default Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM

I bought a barrel of SR-18 when it was first mandated for Comp and ProStock. My Hemi ran no faster than with C12. Plus, I was always concerned about passing fuel check. I remember once when one of the fuel check guys asked what the hell was I using the Sunoco fuel for. I told him I had a whole barrel of it to burn up.
Dyno is offline   Reply With Quote
Liked
Old 08-21-2019, 11:18 PM   #20
Ben Holt
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 123
Likes: 2
Liked 95 Times in 29 Posts
Default Re: Question on SS/AH & AH/SM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Broome View Post
Okay, I have lots of questions.

I understand Comp "can" be a teardown class, but considering all of the fuss about valve cover location/studs in SS/AA a while back, there aren't ANY modifications that might slide through in Comp? Or do you anticipate going through a full Super Stock teardown after qualifying for Comp? That's the only way Comp racers are ensuring that AH/SM is adhering to "engine/car rules are lifted verbatim from SS", not tweaked for performance here and there.


Truth is, Comp racers got tired of new classes getting a "gift" index and AH/SM and FS/SM suffered because of it. I see where you mentioned that the index should be where the top running cars should be able to run .65 under right off the bat, really? Yet you propose a 9.05 index? 9.05 minus .65 equals 8.40 by my math, Wolkwitz ran what, 8.44, at the Gators? I suppose that .61 under your proposed index right off the bat wouldn't be a gift, right?
Do you need to run .65 under to win Comp? How far under did Bruno have to run at Topeka? Does Rampy need to run .61 under to be competitive?


If the SS/AH cars really wanted to run Comp, they needed to show up at Divisional Races to run Comp. Those performance standards would give them some leverage for a better index. How many have done that this year? Or do you only expect cars to show up at Divisionals that have a chance to win? If you show up at a Divisional to get grade points in SS/AH do you still run the car like a "mini pro stock"?


Now, is the current AH/SM index too hard at 8.75? I would agree, that's too fast. What should it be? Slower, but how much? At 3170 lbs AH/SM is 7.14 pounds per cubic inch, A/SM is 7.5 pounds per inch....with an 8.45 index. For those who don't do math, that's .39 heavier and .30 faster than the "too fast" AH/SM index! Maybe A/SM needs an adjustment too! Is there a SM class with an index close to your proposed 9.05 index? Oh, D/SM is. That's 9.5 pounds per inch with little carburetors and head limitations, you could add only 1050 pounds to get to the index you want. The only precise way to determine the correct index for AH/SM is with more performance data. The only way to generate that data is?
Let me see if I can answer them for you

Yes, if you hit the index or set a record as an AH/SM you can expect to get a full super stock style teardown. That is straight from NHRA tech dept.

No, I do not believe a top running hemi car being able to run .65 under is a gift. It is a highly refined combo that, again, will not "magically" go faster as a comp car. And that is the beauty of comp. If one of these cars does go .65 under in elims, then the cic starts to come into affect and will in turn self regulate the index. That is the basis of comp.

Yes, I do agree with you that they need to actually run the class as it sits so that they can show in real world conditions that the index is off. Without doing a ton of research, there have been several this year that have competed. Wolkwitz, comella, welker, Bucky, pancake, and I think a few west coast guys have. I know several of my other customers considered it, but elected to stay in SS b3cause of the index.

I can only speak for my current customers, but everyone I know runs their car like they are trying to set a record every time they go to the water box. Only exception is probably comellas dart. They don't run it as hard but they are chasing points (and kicking butt!) And they have the red cuda to run shootouts with.

First, minimum weight for ss/ah is 3200. Second, you can't compare a/sm and ah/sm. A/sm is allowed two dominators, any port work, titanium valves, aluminum rods, billet cranks, vacuum pumps, longer wheelie bars, 5 speeds, carbon brakes, etc. Just the 5 speed alone is probably a tenth.....

As far as where is the data? There is 50 years of it. Or the last ten years of hemi shootout at indy. We compiled the data of the last 4 years of the shootout at indy versus comp qualifying and submitted that to nhra. When you look at that info, same track, weather, track, etc, it's pretty obvious where the index needs to be.
Ben Holt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright © Class Racer.com. All Rights Reserved. Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective owners.