Indy Teardown Warning

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Jeff Johnson

Soon to be released by NHRA the following statement.....This "Technical Enhancement" will raise the price of a entry by...…..

LOL..........You nailed it !

[Ken Miele]

The more I think about this the more questions I have. I was talking to my engine builder and he had a good point. We have all the tools that NHRA uses to check our engines. Now there is a new tool that my engine builder does not have. How can we make sure we are in compliance if we do not have the same tool. So now we have to get the same tool and training to make sure our heads are correct. How many engine shops are going to spend $60,000 plus for this new equipment. And from what I have been reading this equipment is not like a cc check, or checking with bore gauge and dial caliper. Its not as easy as going through easy pass, either your green to go or red stop, the person has to be highly trained with the right equipment. I know some will say, if you have a stock head you have nothing to worry about, but that's bs. Core shift and old casting molds are a reality, and heads can look different from casting run to casting run.

My last questions is where and who do we send our heads to make sure we are in compliance before we go racing to make sure there are no issues I would think we need to send both heads to not have any issues.

There has been no announcement if this is supposed to happened, but the info I have been receiving seems like its a good possibility it will. I wish NHRA would confirm or deny this. I know its not something NHRA does, getting involved with social media, but it would ease a lot of racers heading to Indy if they new what to expect.

[Jeff Swanson]

I don't see how NHRA could possibly have enough data to apply this to regular stockers. They may start collecting data from cars going thru teardown to start to build a database though.

Now FS cars are a different story, and I'm guessing that this is more aimed at those cars.

[VE6DRW]

Originally Posted by james schaechter

Wow you really don’t understand class racing...

I think you missed my point. If your goal is to race for Class Trophies, then by all means ... However, some may have a broader view of Stock Eliminator. BTW, I checked the first (of many) National Record certificates on my wall and its dated May, 1980. I played the "best-of-breed" game for many years, but would much rather go deep into the rounds of Sunday eliminations.

[Tom Broome]

Originally Posted by Ken Miele

The more I think about this the more questions I have. I was talking to my engine builder and he had a good point. We have all the tools that NHRA uses to check our engines. Now there is a new tool that my engine builder does not have. How can we make sure we are in compliance if we do not have the same tool. So now we have to get the same tool and training to make sure our heads are correct. How many engine shops are going to spend $60,000 plus for this new equipment. And from what I have been reading this equipment is not like a cc check, or checking with bore gauge and dial caliper. Its not as easy as going through easy pass, either your green to go or red stop, the person has to be highly trained with the right equipment. I know some will say, if you have a stock head you have nothing to worry about, but that's bs. Core shift and old casting molds are a reality, and heads can look different from casting run to casting run.

My last questions is where and who do we send our heads to make sure we are in compliance before we go racing to make sure there are no issues I would think we need to send both heads to not have any issues.

There has been no announcement if this is supposed to happened, but the info I have been receiving seems like its a good possibility it will. I wish NHRA would confirm or deny this. I know its not something NHRA does, getting involved with social media, but it would ease a lot of racers heading to Indy if they new what to expect.

I'm going to address your issues in reverse order.
Why would NHRA confirm or deny any of the speculation referenced here? Let the rumor mill take care of the problem, racers will once again be prepared to pass tech whenever wherever. There was a time you didn't go to Indy with any question that you could pass tech. They might find something you overlooked, but you better have had some pretty good sleight of hand if you went with bogus stuff.


Who do you send your heads to? Who will have the data files NHRA uses?


Do the engine builders need the same equipment as NHRA? If, and it's a big IF all of this speculation actually applies to "classic" stockers (old stuff)....I'm not sure it does. But if an engine builder that builds older combinations with old castings isn't really cheating the heads....I'm talking grinding and spray welding....he doesn't need the equipment. He won't have access to the data anyway.
My opinion.....You know what's real BS? Thinking that core shift or old core boxes will cause a head to scan as illegal. If the head was that bad would it even run well enough to need to be torn down? Would it even cc correctly (small enough)? Wouldn't the engine builder have disqualified the casting before it ever got that far?


Question for those out there, are there still heads around with altered casting numbers? It happened in the past.

[Tom Broome]

Originally Posted by X-TECH MAN

The cylinder head garbage has been going on a LONG time. It started back before the mid 1980's. I know of several who did this for a fact and still do. I could name names but that would start a war so I won't. NHRA expanded on it by allowing the any duration and over lap rule along with any valve spring pressures. You might as well be running Super Stock and eliminate the stocker classes all together !

I don't have to tell you, this cylinder head garbage has been going on since Super Stockers had unported heads. Except for the SS/C AMX's, talk about a can of worms! That's why we now have Super Stockers with these fragile, welded, leaking, piles of iron.....art projects.

I can't name names either, but I have worked on parts for stockers that show me iron intake manifolds that are pounds lighter than OEM parts.

Head cheating is so rampant in some circle track arenas that I once had a "renowned" tech man want to throw out a set of Dart Iron heads because they "looked too good, they must be acid dipped" (I went through that acid dipping phase in the 80's not going there again). Runner volumes were then found to be smaller than spec, so he then wanted to throw the car out because the heads were TOO legal.

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Tom Broome

I'm going to address your issues in reverse order.
Why would NHRA confirm or deny any of the speculation referenced here? Let the rumor mill take care of the problem, racers will once again be prepared to pass tech whenever wherever. There was a time you didn't go to Indy with any question that you could pass tech. They might find something you overlooked, but you better have had some pretty good sleight of hand if you went with bogus stuff.


Who do you send your heads to? Who will have the data files NHRA uses?


Do the engine builders need the same equipment as NHRA? If, and it's a big IF all of this speculation actually applies to "classic" stockers (old stuff)....I'm not sure it does. But if an engine builder that builds older combinations with old castings isn't really cheating the heads....I'm talking grinding and spray welding....he doesn't need the equipment. He won't have access to the data anyway.
My opinion.....You know what's real BS? Thinking that core shift or old core boxes will cause a head to scan as illegal. If the head was that bad would it even run well enough to need to be torn down? Would it even cc correctly (small enough)? Wouldn't the engine builder have disqualified the casting before it ever got that far?


Question for those out there, are there still heads around with altered casting numbers? It happened in the past.

Great Post !
I remember an intake manifold for a Ford CJ 428 that weighed 10 lbs less than a real stock one......And I remember an intake manifold with an altered casting number just a few years ago.

[james schaechter]

Originally Posted by VE6DRW

I think you missed my point. If your goal is to race for Class Trophies, then by all means ... However, some may have a broader view of Stock Eliminator. BTW, I checked the first (of many) National Record certificates on my wall and its dated May, 1980. I played the "best-of-breed" game for many years, but would much rather go deep into the rounds of Sunday eliminations.

Maybe, not a problem. However, the choice between record setting and going rounds is a false choice. It is true that some have a priority of one over the other. You can choose both. I am not saying it always works out. I am surprised that you would think that the solution you pose would be cheaper given your experience. It might be cheaper for a second or two before it becomes super modified.

There is no easy answer, but if NHRA does communicate better and follow up, we would see less cars “forgetting” which carb they happened to have on a car or competing in a performance class with a bracket motor.

We can’t go back in time as some would prefer, but we can at least improve the oversight and customer support from that standpoint. I am encouraged there seems to be some improvement in that area as of late.

[VE6DRW]

Originally Posted by james schaechter

Maybe, not a problem. However, the choice between record setting and going rounds is a false choice. It is true that some have a priority of one over the other. You can choose both. I am not saying it always works out. I am surprised that you would think that the solution you pose would be cheaper given your experience. It might be cheaper for a second or two before it becomes super modified.

There is no easy answer, but if NHRA does communicate better and follow up, we would see less cars “forgetting” which carb they happened to have on a car or competing in a performance class with a bracket motor.

We can’t go back in time as some would prefer, but we can at least improve the oversight and customer support from that standpoint. I am encouraged there seems to be some improvement in that area as of late.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. My rules suggestion was somewhat tongue in cheek, but there has to be a better way to control the explicit "cheating" and darkroom voodoo that's going on. Costs aside, perhaps it just needs to be out in the open.



As a commercial organization, NHRA are always looking to reduce costs and streamline their program. Sure, the Stock and SS entries pay heavy entry fees, but it's dwarfed by the corporate sponsorship, crowd entry, concessions, and TV rights. Thus, any cry from us for better enforcement at National meets is going to be lost.


Perhaps a non-partisan policing body backed by - and made of - ex class racers. NHRA can set the rules - the "body" enforces them. Lots of motorsport bodies have driver associations that enforce regulations and administer sanctions. At least you'd have some genuinely interested people involved.


But I might be getting off topic and I'm sure this ground has been covered before. Good luck to those going to Indy - I wish I was.

[Andys dad]

What a crock - simple decision - skip INDY if you are worried.

Ron