Has This happened to anyone ELse ???

John Moore · 08-26-2008, 11:44 AM

We just finished off competing in the LODRS Division 5 event at Heartland Park Topeka.. Kansas Aug.22 and 23 rd,2008. We arrivewd on Thursday afternoon and paid the additional fees to obtain a couple of time trials operated exclusively by the track. This was only a two day divisional event.

Friday we were given two time trial oppurtunities. The first one we made was after 4 P.M. On our next oppurtunity my driver had encountered a problem with the cable to the shifter inside the car,having a nut come loose and the need to tighten it before he could make a run. He did not enter the burn-out box and did not move forward into the water box. He shut off the car and got my attention. We pushed the car back out of the way for the other qualifiers to go through. The next pair of qualifiers ended up with one going over on his top causing a shut down of the track for clean-up. During this time we were able to secure the loose nut and fix our small malfunction before all cleanup was completed.

The staging lane guy told us he would get us back in after the next pair and called via radio to the Heartland Park Tower control to advise them of us going back in. There were at least 6 other Top Sportsman cars to make their qualifying pass when all the cleanup had been completed. DIvision 5 DIrector Rob Park called over the radio to advise the Heartland Park Crew that we were not getting our pass and we were done because of our backing up and shutting down. So, we only had the one pass that day , it rained out any qualifying passes for Saturday A.M. and we went right into eliminations Sat afternoon.

I find nothing in the rulebook that says we did anything wrong and for the time and the way the situation happened with the cleanup, the amount of cars left to complete the T/S qualifying round I do not see how we could have been such an interruption to the already tight schedule.

Later, I checked with the Division 5 Tech Diresctor about this unusual situation. He found a " 2007 POLICY " that explained the right of the EVENT DIRECTOR has in nullifying a run.

I say , if it is a POLICY , it ought to be in the rulebook and I especially feel this was a bad judgement call on the Event Director and way too tight of a call to just wipe out our qualifying run.

I'd like to see what the Sportsman Advisory Council thinks of this type of action and let us know if they agree with this situatioin.

The car is T/S 5219 - 88 Chevrolet Beretta -- Christopher John Moore was the driver.
I am the father and I was there with this entire process. This is our car.. Father/Son.

Please advise whether this is something that is normal and routine or NOT !

Thanks,

SSTRACER323 · 08-26-2008, 01:43 PM

The same thing happened to Brian Brown running in T/S at the Div 5 Race in Earlville Ia. in 2006. We where in the staging lanes for a qualifier and went across the White Line that says no dail in changes after this point, We had the wire come off the neutral safety switch and the car would not start, we moved over to the side and fixed it and was not allowed to make our pass. We where told once you crossed the white line you are paired up and and if not ready to run tough luck. We did not make a burnout or anything..
We pressed the issue and was told that is the rules.

So you are not alone on this deal

Bryan Gillespie · 08-26-2008, 03:53 PM

Welcome to the big league !

John Moore · 08-26-2008, 11:35 PM

UPDATE Received Today ......................... From Rob Park.................

Mr. Moore, I am sorry you had an unpleasant experience and disagree with our policy. I have copied Sportsman Racing Advisory Council representative, Clif Bakx, at your request, so that he may respond if he chooses to do so.

The decision I made was not really "my decision" but rather the policy NHRA has had for at least the last 19 years. (number of years I have been with NHRA)

In any performance based qualifying eliminator (TS-TD included) once a competitor is in the lanes and has a designated pair he/she must be prepared to fire and race. pg 41 of the 2008 NHRA Rule Book.

It is the responsibility of each driver to be prepared to run in their assigned "slot" or forfeit the session. NHRA Policy and Procedures.

If we allowed competitors to randomly pull out of the lanes and quote "fix" their problems we would face the potential of drivers trying to manipulate when they run in order to benefit their personal cause. (i.e. not running after an oil down, positioning on ladder, running the last of session etc) I have no doubt your intentions we to truly to fix your problem. Unfortunately NHRA must remain consistent in our ruling in that once you missed your spot in your qualifying session you have forfeited your opportunity to make that pass.

You made the comment that our Policy and Procedures Manual should be in the rulebook. And although that would be nice at some times, adding an additional 200 plus pages of Race Operation and Technical Policies to an already lengthy rulebook would be very cumbersome. NHRA hires officials such as myself to study and enforce the current policies so the racers do not have to police the procedures themselves.

I hope you understand our position and wish you the best of luck for the remainder of the 2008 racing season.

Sincerely,

Rob Park

And this from Sportsman Advisory Committee Representative..

John,

After reading through your letter, & Rob Park’s reply, this situation could really have gone either way.

Your shut down was, I’m sure, genuine; and combined with the positive nature of drag racing; you should have no doubt been given the qualifying run.

However, Rob has very valid reasoning in backing up the NHRA policy. I have seen it myself where ‘back in the lanes’ there has been some car juggling, for all the wrong reasons.

I also believe that if all the tracks had highly qualified ‘staging lane guys’ (I call them the same thing), then there could probably be some leeway allowed. But, & I’m sure most will agree, despite their best effort, these guys are not all highly qualified.

I will bring your Topeka ‘experience’ to some of the other division members on the advisory council to see what they think, & get a few other opinions.

Thanks for writing in, & don’t hesitate to respond to this, or any other issues you or fellow racers may have.

Clif Bakx

TD539

TD4087 · 11-20-2008, 01:58 PM

John, my personal experience is the guys @ NHRA are just flat rude and don't care if your there or not. Everytime I go to an NHRA divsional the tech guys are just dying to find something wrong with your car to bounce you and the staging lane guys treat you like a 3rd grader.

I switched and started going to IHRA races and the atmosphere and attitude are 100% better. Sounds like although yes, they followed the rules, they still could have handled it better. And what would it have hurt to let you make your hit?

Freddie · 12-09-2008, 10:45 AM

Every track we have ever raced at since I started in 82, once you pass the ready line at the end of staging if you cannot complete your run you are not allowed back in line till the next session. There have been some exeptions but these were mainly small tracks weekly bracket races where they had the time.

Not to start anything here, but most problems with our cars are easily fixed with routine maint. I am supprised at how many of the faster cars dont look at 90% of the car till something breaks. The faster you go the more you should be aware of everything on your car. We routinely check all our steering components, brakes, fluid lines..etc..

don R · 12-10-2008, 11:29 PM

On the flip side we were forced to sit and burn down at the JR Dragster nats in the final round at Norwalk. It was after the burnouts and the competition threw off his drive chain. We were announced the winner but then we were turned away from staging 3 times while our opponent fixed their car. I was new at this at the time and would not allow it to happen today. Of course our head temp went up and we ran off. Still angry after all these years.

08-26-2008, 11:44 AM	#1
John Moore Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Kansas Posts: 13 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Has This happened to anyone ELse ??? We just finished off competing in the LODRS Division 5 event at Heartland Park Topeka.. Kansas Aug.22 and 23 rd,2008. We arrivewd on Thursday afternoon and paid the additional fees to obtain a couple of time trials operated exclusively by the track. This was only a two day divisional event. Friday we were given two time trial oppurtunities. The first one we made was after 4 P.M. On our next oppurtunity my driver had encountered a problem with the cable to the shifter inside the car,having a nut come loose and the need to tighten it before he could make a run. He did not enter the burn-out box and did not move forward into the water box. He shut off the car and got my attention. We pushed the car back out of the way for the other qualifiers to go through. The next pair of qualifiers ended up with one going over on his top causing a shut down of the track for clean-up. During this time we were able to secure the loose nut and fix our small malfunction before all cleanup was completed. The staging lane guy told us he would get us back in after the next pair and called via radio to the Heartland Park Tower control to advise them of us going back in. There were at least 6 other Top Sportsman cars to make their qualifying pass when all the cleanup had been completed. DIvision 5 DIrector Rob Park called over the radio to advise the Heartland Park Crew that we were not getting our pass and we were done because of our backing up and shutting down. So, we only had the one pass that day , it rained out any qualifying passes for Saturday A.M. and we went right into eliminations Sat afternoon. I find nothing in the rulebook that says we did anything wrong and for the time and the way the situation happened with the cleanup, the amount of cars left to complete the T/S qualifying round I do not see how we could have been such an interruption to the already tight schedule. Later, I checked with the Division 5 Tech Diresctor about this unusual situation. He found a " 2007 POLICY " that explained the right of the EVENT DIRECTOR has in nullifying a run. I say , if it is a POLICY , it ought to be in the rulebook and I especially feel this was a bad judgement call on the Event Director and way too tight of a call to just wipe out our qualifying run. I'd like to see what the Sportsman Advisory Council thinks of this type of action and let us know if they agree with this situatioin. The car is T/S 5219 - 88 Chevrolet Beretta -- Christopher John Moore was the driver. I am the father and I was there with this entire process. This is our car.. Father/Son. Please advise whether this is something that is normal and routine or NOT ! Thanks, __________________ John Moore ET 521,S/G 5212,T/S 521

08-26-2008, 01:43 PM	#2
SSTRACER323 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Coal City, IL. Posts: 775 Likes: 3 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Has This happened to anyone ELse ??? The same thing happened to Brian Brown running in T/S at the Div 5 Race in Earlville Ia. in 2006. We where in the staging lanes for a qualifier and went across the White Line that says no dail in changes after this point, We had the wire come off the neutral safety switch and the car would not start, we moved over to the side and fixed it and was not allowed to make our pass. We where told once you crossed the white line you are paired up and and if not ready to run tough luck. We did not make a burnout or anything.. We pressed the issue and was told that is the rules. So you are not alone on this deal __________________ The Doughboy Lee Lones S/ST 323L

08-26-2008, 03:53 PM	#3
Bryan Gillespie Banned Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 456 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Has This happened to anyone ELse ??? Welcome to the big league !

08-26-2008, 11:35 PM	#4
John Moore Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Kansas Posts: 13 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Has This happened to anyone ELse ??? UPDATE Received Today ......................... From Rob Park................. Mr. Moore, I am sorry you had an unpleasant experience and disagree with our policy. I have copied Sportsman Racing Advisory Council representative, Clif Bakx, at your request, so that he may respond if he chooses to do so. The decision I made was not really "my decision" but rather the policy NHRA has had for at least the last 19 years. (number of years I have been with NHRA) In any performance based qualifying eliminator (TS-TD included) once a competitor is in the lanes and has a designated pair he/she must be prepared to fire and race. pg 41 of the 2008 NHRA Rule Book. It is the responsibility of each driver to be prepared to run in their assigned "slot" or forfeit the session. NHRA Policy and Procedures. If we allowed competitors to randomly pull out of the lanes and quote "fix" their problems we would face the potential of drivers trying to manipulate when they run in order to benefit their personal cause. (i.e. not running after an oil down, positioning on ladder, running the last of session etc) I have no doubt your intentions we to truly to fix your problem. Unfortunately NHRA must remain consistent in our ruling in that once you missed your spot in your qualifying session you have forfeited your opportunity to make that pass. You made the comment that our Policy and Procedures Manual should be in the rulebook. And although that would be nice at some times, adding an additional 200 plus pages of Race Operation and Technical Policies to an already lengthy rulebook would be very cumbersome. NHRA hires officials such as myself to study and enforce the current policies so the racers do not have to police the procedures themselves. I hope you understand our position and wish you the best of luck for the remainder of the 2008 racing season. Sincerely, Rob Park And this from Sportsman Advisory Committee Representative.. John, After reading through your letter, & Rob Park’s reply, this situation could really have gone either way. Your shut down was, I’m sure, genuine; and combined with the positive nature of drag racing; you should have no doubt been given the qualifying run. However, Rob has very valid reasoning in backing up the NHRA policy. I have seen it myself where ‘back in the lanes’ there has been some car juggling, for all the wrong reasons. I also believe that if all the tracks had highly qualified ‘staging lane guys’ (I call them the same thing), then there could probably be some leeway allowed. But, & I’m sure most will agree, despite their best effort, these guys are not all highly qualified. I will bring your Topeka ‘experience’ to some of the other division members on the advisory council to see what they think, & get a few other opinions. Thanks for writing in, & don’t hesitate to respond to this, or any other issues you or fellow racers may have. Clif Bakx TD539 __________________ John Moore ET 521,S/G 5212,T/S 521

11-20-2008, 01:58 PM	#5
TD4087 Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Has This happened to anyone ELse ??? John, my personal experience is the guys @ NHRA are just flat rude and don't care if your there or not. Everytime I go to an NHRA divsional the tech guys are just dying to find something wrong with your car to bounce you and the staging lane guys treat you like a 3rd grader. I switched and started going to IHRA races and the atmosphere and attitude are 100% better. Sounds like although yes, they followed the rules, they still could have handled it better. And what would it have hurt to let you make your hit?

12-09-2008, 10:45 AM	#6
Freddie Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tampa Fla / Anderson SC Posts: 334 Likes: 12 Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Has This happened to anyone ELse ??? Every track we have ever raced at since I started in 82, once you pass the ready line at the end of staging if you cannot complete your run you are not allowed back in line till the next session. There have been some exeptions but these were mainly small tracks weekly bracket races where they had the time. Not to start anything here, but most problems with our cars are easily fixed with routine maint. I am supprised at how many of the faster cars dont look at 90% of the car till something breaks. The faster you go the more you should be aware of everything on your car. We routinely check all our steering components, brakes, fluid lines..etc.. __________________ NHRA: Comp 2200 - S/C 2201 NMRA 2012 Outlaw 10.5 #10

12-10-2008, 11:29 PM	#7
don R Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Illinois Posts: 109 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Has This happened to anyone ELse ??? On the flip side we were forced to sit and burn down at the JR Dragster nats in the final round at Norwalk. It was after the burnouts and the competition threw off his drive chain. We were announced the winner but then we were turned away from staging 3 times while our opponent fixed their car. I was new at this at the time and would not allow it to happen today. Of course our head temp went up and we ran off. Still angry after all these years.