What Stock rules would you change? - Page 7

Ron Ortiz · 11-20-2019, 06:44 PM

AHFS can work if properly applied. Racers control the data, but they adjust it at the top end by lifting or braking. If they record all the lower end readings, 60', 330' etc, it will show a progression that is consistent. Racers can calculate what they would have run even though they lifted with certain formulas. To cheat the system they would have to alter all the incremental times. All those incremental times reveal what the true performance would be. Now compare that with like combos and you will see a pattern. If math is involved it will tell you what the results are and cheating can be detected.

Jim Caughlin · 11-20-2019, 07:02 PM

OK, don't kill the messenger but look at the averages data that NHRA released about a month ago and it doesn't take a rocker surgeon to see that the system doesn't work. If you are in a heavily populated class with a lot of dogs, you can pretty much run as fast as you want whenever you want (other than don't go -1.2) and not have to worry at all. I counted a total of 13 classes that were triggered (stock & ss) making a total of 62 trigger runs that will not get refactored. Jeez, one of the classes has 12 trigger runs (the fastest being 1.17 under) and it got .3 back last year. Who comes up with this kind of system? Even if you don't want to dog it, all you need is enough slugs in your class and you're home free. I doubt that some of these fast cars could get the average up even if they tried.

Also, don't assume that 1000' times would root out the offenders, lots of ways to make the whole run look proportionally slow.

As I said previously, my car is as bad of an offender as a lot of others, I'm willing to let it rip as soon as everyone else agrees to do the same. In the meantime, I'm going to play the game like everyone else, just wish we didn't have to.

Flame on...

Jim Caughlin
SS 6019

Ron Ortiz · 11-20-2019, 07:20 PM

Well if that is the case then why don't they just eliminate the AHFS all together. But that is for another thread, this is about stock rules.

Close the lanes after final call.

Jim Caughlin · 11-20-2019, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Ortiz

Well if that is the case then why don't they just eliminate the AHFS all together. But that is for another thread, this is about stock rules.

Close the lanes after final call.

The alternative is equally bad. If you recall, before AHFS, NHRA just made arbitrary adjustments with no explanation. I don't have a solution, just saying what is currently in place is obviously being gamed by racers. Don't we all want a better system?

B Parker · 11-20-2019, 09:11 PM

Anyone remember what year the AHFS was implemented? I have never been a big fan but it's better than not doing anything at all. Since it was implemented we now have better trany's. After market blocks, heads, intakes and carbs for some of the combo's. The ring combo's are better. Roller rockers and now solid lifters for all. Three speeds instead of two speeds. Better oils and so on. Just a guess but the average combo should be two tenths or quicker now.
How about if they at least tweak the system so it's up to today's standard.
At the Epping divisional it was so bad the announcer asked several times over the PA for our Division One Director to have it be a mine shaft race so he could watch 1/4 mile racing instead of 1000 ft shut off's. I'm hoping our reps are taking a look at the system and recommend some changes. BP

Mark Yacavone · 11-20-2019, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Caughlin

The alternative is equally bad. If you recall, before AHFS, NHRA just made arbitrary adjustments with no explanation. I don't have a solution, just saying what is currently in place is obviously being gamed by racers. Don't we all want a better system?

Not a solution but a band-aid adjustment.
S/SS is supposed to be a performance category, with indexes that reflect the hp per pound potential, yet cars routinely run 1 second under the supposed standard. Something ain't right here.

Here you go:
Raised the automatic hp trigger two tenths.
Then lower all indexes 4 tenths.
One second under index= instant hp..Mandatory tear down

NO,NO,NO more goodies for five (5) years.

Example...A/SA 11.00 becomes 10.60
Run of 9.59 = hp.

Response to counterpoint, right up front..I'll save you the trouble.
Most car , even at the bottom, are 2-3 under. If you can't pick your car up a tenth, with all the current technology, possibly you're in the wrong sport, or maybe go bracket racing for a while, then come back. Lots of cars are quota-ed out of national meets anyway . Why not start here, seeing this IS a performance eliminator, right?

For? Against? Tell us why..

Hacksaw · 11-20-2019, 11:24 PM

If you lower the indexes by 4 tenths, all the local Series type races will suffer from a smaller turnout of competitors. Not good. Currently most series honor IHRA indexes, but for how much longer? I like your plan, but it seems to be a double edged sword where the little guy gets beat up to suit the quick ones who are holding back. Seems to me this more of a Stock Elim. problem. Maybe go 2 tenths lower on the index?

Paul Wong · 11-21-2019, 12:50 AM

How about no more relaxation of the rules. Parts have been hard to find for a lot of combinations since they were new. Owning a 375/396 car now I don’t see what parts in the engine that are stock left. Enough is enough or they will just combine stock and super stock the closer the two classes get.
As far as the AHFS. I guess a lot of us have short memories about the complaining of the arbitrary nature that horsepower was given to vehicle in time gone by. It was not 2-5 hp either it was increments of 5 hp at the discretion of NHRA not any average no matter how it was manipulated. You would just open up the National Dragster at any given time to see new HP numbers posted. How about the joke of hitting red Malibu 2 doors at one point. The system is getting a major overhaul this winter from what I gather anyway.

Adger Smith · 11-21-2019, 03:37 AM

I would only change rules that had a direct benefit to me.

nhramnl · 11-21-2019, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adger Smith

I would only change rules that had a direct benefit to me.

Excellent point. I would call it the Clinton Foundation Rule, and it would also allow any competitor to punch another competitor in the face, if he believes that competitor took too long to stage.

11-20-2019, 06:44 PM	#61
Ron Ortiz Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Englewood, Florida Posts: 962 Likes: 28 Liked 255 Times in 87 Posts	Re: What Stock rules would you change? AHFS can work if properly applied. Racers control the data, but they adjust it at the top end by lifting or braking. If they record all the lower end readings, 60', 330' etc, it will show a progression that is consistent. Racers can calculate what they would have run even though they lifted with certain formulas. To cheat the system they would have to alter all the incremental times. All those incremental times reveal what the true performance would be. Now compare that with like combos and you will see a pattern. If math is involved it will tell you what the results are and cheating can be detected. __________________ Ron Ortiz 2102 STK

11-20-2019, 07:02 PM	#62
Jim Caughlin Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Woodburn, Or Posts: 635 Likes: 70 Liked 693 Times in 208 Posts	Re: What Stock rules would you change? OK, don't kill the messenger but look at the averages data that NHRA released about a month ago and it doesn't take a rocker surgeon to see that the system doesn't work. If you are in a heavily populated class with a lot of dogs, you can pretty much run as fast as you want whenever you want (other than don't go -1.2) and not have to worry at all. I counted a total of 13 classes that were triggered (stock & ss) making a total of 62 trigger runs that will not get refactored. Jeez, one of the classes has 12 trigger runs (the fastest being 1.17 under) and it got .3 back last year. Who comes up with this kind of system? Even if you don't want to dog it, all you need is enough slugs in your class and you're home free. I doubt that some of these fast cars could get the average up even if they tried. Also, don't assume that 1000' times would root out the offenders, lots of ways to make the whole run look proportionally slow. As I said previously, my car is as bad of an offender as a lot of others, I'm willing to let it rip as soon as everyone else agrees to do the same. In the meantime, I'm going to play the game like everyone else, just wish we didn't have to. Flame on... Jim Caughlin SS 6019

11-20-2019, 07:20 PM	#63
Ron Ortiz Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Englewood, Florida Posts: 962 Likes: 28 Liked 255 Times in 87 Posts	Re: What Stock rules would you change? Well if that is the case then why don't they just eliminate the AHFS all together. But that is for another thread, this is about stock rules. Close the lanes after final call. __________________ Ron Ortiz 2102 STK

11-20-2019, 09:11 PM	#65
B Parker Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 835 Likes: 921 Liked 2,314 Times in 455 Posts	Re: What Stock rules would you change? Anyone remember what year the AHFS was implemented? I have never been a big fan but it's better than not doing anything at all. Since it was implemented we now have better trany's. After market blocks, heads, intakes and carbs for some of the combo's. The ring combo's are better. Roller rockers and now solid lifters for all. Three speeds instead of two speeds. Better oils and so on. Just a guess but the average combo should be two tenths or quicker now. How about if they at least tweak the system so it's up to today's standard. At the Epping divisional it was so bad the announcer asked several times over the PA for our Division One Director to have it be a mine shaft race so he could watch 1/4 mile racing instead of 1000 ft shut off's. I'm hoping our reps are taking a look at the system and recommend some changes. BP Last edited by B Parker; 11-20-2019 at 11:29 PM.

11-20-2019, 11:24 PM	#67
Hacksaw Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 838 Likes: 150 Liked 276 Times in 151 Posts	Re: What Stock rules would you change? If you lower the indexes by 4 tenths, all the local Series type races will suffer from a smaller turnout of competitors. Not good. Currently most series honor IHRA indexes, but for how much longer? I like your plan, but it seems to be a double edged sword where the little guy gets beat up to suit the quick ones who are holding back. Seems to me this more of a Stock Elim. problem. Maybe go 2 tenths lower on the index?

11-21-2019, 12:50 AM	#68
Paul Wong Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 367 Likes: 94 Liked 379 Times in 72 Posts	Re: What Stock rules would you change? How about no more relaxation of the rules. Parts have been hard to find for a lot of combinations since they were new. Owning a 375/396 car now I don’t see what parts in the engine that are stock left. Enough is enough or they will just combine stock and super stock the closer the two classes get. As far as the AHFS. I guess a lot of us have short memories about the complaining of the arbitrary nature that horsepower was given to vehicle in time gone by. It was not 2-5 hp either it was increments of 5 hp at the discretion of NHRA not any average no matter how it was manipulated. You would just open up the National Dragster at any given time to see new HP numbers posted. How about the joke of hitting red Malibu 2 doors at one point. The system is getting a major overhaul this winter from what I gather anyway. Last edited by Paul Wong; 11-21-2019 at 12:57 AM.

11-21-2019, 03:37 AM	#69
Adger Smith VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Texarkana Ark/TX Posts: 2,348 Likes: 434 Liked 677 Times in 261 Posts	Re: What Stock rules would you change? I would only change rules that had a direct benefit to me. __________________ Adger Smith (Former SS)