2 tenths?

[SS Engine Guy]

Please fill me in on exactly what problem will be solved by removing 2 tenths from stock and SS indexes?

I will start it off:
(1) I now have a total of four SS engines that will not be built or feshened since this has been posted in 2 days. So with a backlog of work to finish by Feb. Instead of being behind schedule I am now on schedule providing no more back out. As a side note, letters have already been typed and mailed to the manufacturers who supply me with regular and specialized parts for these pieces. Guess what? I have already fielded calls from 10 of the 11 manufacturers and they weren't at all pleased. You know that thing about money talks........


OK I just gave you one problem that will be resolved. I already know that index was given quite a few yrs. ago as a move to encourage new racers to move into the s/ss ranks. I also know that is when tech was starting to be overruled more often. (the reason for so many "exceptions") or different or replacement parts were allowed in the first place. But not across the board.

[Dick Butler]

Engine guy, Isnt this a variation of the HP plan? you know the one where a newer car with a motor which has a 100hp too low rating is allowed to create havoc in the qualifying and class for 5 years maybe even with wrong head ccs? People begin to build them and get rid of older cars or motors hoping to stay competitive and FINALLY factoring accidently happens and wa lah old motors gone, old cars gone, LOTS of MONEY and upset people during and after the 5 years of planned neglect? The FI cars are a perfect example but this time instead of factoring them by looking at written specs a several year split was allowed. THEN when many accepted the technology and they were being factored up the old cars are mainly replaced by more socially accepted late models. Some of the bogus factors remain in GT and SS 305 cars.
I know of 400 chevy owners giving up now due to the "fact" they are more correct but cant keep up with the FI underfactored motors which remain.
I know old Chevies(fill in your brand) arent being sold today and Old corvettes dont sell new cars but could it just be admitted up front and be honest to everyone and more brain power used to begin with?NO because that wouldnt get the new cars into the field which are needed....

[Jack McCarthy]

the last time the indexes were adjusted they went UP about .15...

since then we (stock) have been given
unlimited duration
unlimited vale springs
electric water pumps / fans
liteweight brakes
aftermarket ignitions
aftermarket pulleys
ultra lite wheels
radial slicks
... i miss anything ?

superstock has been given
bowtie / aftermarket blocks / parts
any head which pours
any design runners
no alternator
lite wheels
radials
...im sure im short here

this is like a stock market adjustment...
it should only require a little more attention, and more WORK to run the index and solo win class

i raced for 3-4 years BEFORE i ran the number... and qualified at indy once +.02

they shoulda dropped them -.50, but thanks for the effort NHRA

jack mccarthy

and SS engine guy...
if they are paying you for a good motor god knows they should be able to run under the index, hell my stocker is DAMN close.
and if you can run under so what the hell difference is it making...did it ruin someones EGO TRIP (i can go a second under.. oh boy)

[tim worner]

Out of 256 stock & super stock cars qualified @ Indy 156 were a second or better under with 15 more being .990 or better under. That is at a track that is almost a 1000ft elev. It would seem that the indexs are way too soft and out of date. With that said the horse power review should also be lowered to 1.00 sec under and take into account all runs national & divional.

[SS Engine Guy]

VERY good posts! All have valid points and I think are well thought out! Mr. Butler offered a good idea of why the indexes should be lowered. If I read the post correctly this could be an attempt to make it harder to run an older model vehicle as opposed to a new one. He also brought up a good point about factoring. The 400 chev. which was given a bowtie block so an under rated combo could be used. The stock block was so thin that it cracked the thrust surface after very few passes. A bowtie block made this a killer combo for 3? years. Finally it was given I think, 25hp. and still was a very good piece. A good example of the proper factor putting the combo in line. Not killing it. Just leveling the field.

Jack, I think you left out a bunch of things that have been "allowed" not given in both s/ss. I won't get into the stock list because that is not what I have concentrated on for quite a few yrs. In SS however, I will add to your list of things that have been allowed:
(A) Aftermarket of replacement heads - because a few wanted this because they claimed the parts just weren't out there to be found.
(B) Aftermarket block - because an underfactored motor combo couldn't live without them. However I don't think that the other manufacturers were given this across the board. Now you need a bowtie to use the 55mm cam due to the stock cam bores not having the meat to install.
(C) One off handbuilt intakes - no comment since I have been repeatedly told by tech that they were absolutely illegal? However they are being passed.
(D) Combustion chamber modifications - my favorite! Racer/racers were torn down and found to have not just relieving around the valves but completely reshaped chambers. Instead of a suspension, after legal action was threatened, a few weeks later they were approved.
(E) Smaller diameter journals - again racer/racers were torn down and found to have drastically smaller journals. Instead of a suspension this rule also was changed allowing these modifications.
(F) Any QJ carb as long as the venturi measurement is the same as allowed - same old story: people can't seem to find the correct carb but ebay is full of them as is Hemmings.

I can list more if necessary when I have the time. These few things along with those you mentioned have greatly added to the performance in some classes in SS. These are closer to Comp rules than SS. However, my customers and myself have bore the financial and maintenance burdon of these "Allowed" changes and kept right on going. My customers are somewhat used to the added expence/time/R&D that these "allowed" instead of "illegal" rules changes have brought.
HOWEVER, racers should not have to put up with underated combos (1.15 or more) under and crossing the scales 300 to 900 lbs. heavy. I don't care if you lower the index .2, .5 or any other number you still will be allowing these combos a hiding place. They are getting hit now. But taking 18-22 lbs. out of a car that is already way heavy is accomplishing nothing. They laugh at the guy at the scales, at tech, and at racers because they have leagally beat the system. They aren't the ones using cutting edge technology, working harder with attention to detail as Jack said. They don't have to because they are protected by a system that uses NO COMMON SENCE whatsoever. I'm not saying make these cars uncompetitive. They still should be allowed the same chance every other racer has to qualify well. But when a car qualifies near or at the top and the car is HUNDREDS of pounds heavy shouldn't that tell the hp committee etc. that the hp rating is way off?

Tim, you brought up a very good point about the qualifying at Indy. However, you know that quite a few of those cars had new bullets, fresh bullets, or "Indy" bullets. I freshened 17 SS motors in the months before Indy. I had 3 completely new bullets with the latest combustion chamber tech and pro stock cam designs that were put into top qualifiers the week before. Indy is the same to me as Christmas is to the retail business. Many of my customers have "Class" engines that aren't used but 2-4 times a year because in order to be fast they run on the ragged edge. Still I think that your comparison of Indy sheets is a good analogy. I also like you idea of -1.00 being a trigger and ALL passes should be counted.

Ending I still am unable to grasp the logic behind lowering indexes. As everyone knows: if I am a second under and another is 6 under by removing .2 from the index still has me having you covered by four tenths. Two tenths means nothing. yet. The questions still remains: How much abuse and BS will racers endure? Most of my contacts during an average day are SS racers/ parts and equipment manufacturers. I don't know but 2 that have ever posted on either forum and those were very brief. For anyone that would like to know. The talk is getting alot more serious in the past few months and it isn't anything like alot of the opionions mentioned in most of these topics. There apparantly aren't nearly as many racers that are just tickled to death about alot of recent changes. And racers, like any other consumer talk with their money.

[Mike Keener]

SS Engine Guy,

You probably have identified yourself before on this forum but for those of us who may have missed it (like me for example) would you mind telling us once again who you are?

Anybody who refreshed 17 SS motors before Indy is someone I surely want to know.

Thanks,

Mike Keener
Team Checkmate Race Cars

[Stewart Way]

SS engine guy
Not sure who told you one off intakes were not legal but as far back as 1971 the rule book stated "any intake" of same basic config that will fit under the hood was legal. In 71 they limited the intake to 1" diff in lenght, width and height. In 1972 the 1" limit was removed. I think it was 1994 they added additional wording to keep the crossram crossed and inline inline.
Also don't remember anything about journal diameters being limited to stock unless that is thought to be lightening the crank but then so would -.010 or -.030. Usually when they find someone doing something they don't like they publish a rule change like they did for valve sizes. +.005, -.015. Never saw that for the main journals. Could have missed something on this one though.

On another note, when you have a Stock class car enter and win Super Stock at a national event, would seem like an index adjustment is in order.

[Mickey Whaley]

not tring to start anything but i know when the FI cars were with the carb cars it was no contest the fi cars were much faster, how fast can the FI cars go? The final at memphis the 2 bfia cars went into the 50's off the throttle? i was going 70's with my stuff will we be at a big disadvantage??? With our old carb cars??

[Woodro Josey]

Now Mickey, how fast did you go against Brenda Grubbs in Bradenton? Besides, i have said this before we have been hit with 61 Horsepower since the first outing of the LT1!

[Mickey Whaley]

Originally Posted by Woodro Josey

Now Mickey, how fast did you go against Brenda Grubbs in Bradenton? Besides, i have said this before we have been hit with 61 Horsepower since the first outing of the LT1!

2 tenths faster than i will ever go again, conditions were better than i have ever seen, my dragster has not run within 17 hundreths of what it did in bradenton this year yet? And it's not supposed to be affected by the air that much 582 profiler motor. At memphis i couldnt get in the fifty's no matter what! Maybe a 62