Jones Head - Racers Only - Page 2

TILBURG · 04-10-2018, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Jones

Tilburg,

Hopefully i can clear up some of the issues with this whole deal. NHRA actually has a pretty strict guideline on their accepted products. I have been working on making parts and getting them approved and on the list for about 2 years. I have Pistons and now Cylinder Heads along with other parts like rockers, carb plates etc.. that i designed to fix specific problem. All of the NHRA accepted products have to be available to the general public and that is exactly what i have done. Anyone can buy my accepted products directly as stated on my web site.

With that being said i followed the same procedure as any of the companies on the list and waited my turn. I have heard for years that we need a smaller casting to start with so that is what i did. This is a fully machined head with seats and guides installed (in the approved location) just like the 4 other approved SBC heads on the list except i eliminated the "bogus welding" so any racer could start with the exact same platform as everyone else without the cost. In my opinion this levels the ball field. NHRA knows exactly who casts the heads because that is the first requirement on the letter that gets submitted. This is no different that the FE Pro Port casting that we have had for years.

Erik,
Im not here to say you did anything wrong in you acceptance process with NHRA. Don't think you did. I felt like you with all the welding BS that is needed it would have been nice if they took a core they already have approved and just made the ports Smaller. Which would cut costs and free up time in small shops which is where most of these things are produced. And when something blows up it don't take 6 months to get back on the track. BUT as it was brought up to me you do that anyone can do it. Edelbrock might as well just sell you a ported head. Put that way I guess it's better to maybe rethink my thoughts on that. I wish you the very best on your endeavor and I'm sure it will be fast stuff as your stuff is. Like I said earlier if this is what the racers want feed it to them. I'm out. Only thing I did miss who owns the casting

Sean Cour · 04-11-2018, 01:21 AM

In the past, the decision to allow replacement aftermarket parts such as the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head" for traditional Super Stock class cars, NHRA has taken the position to address three major points -- 1) the need, 2) the impact on preserving integrity and definition of the class, and 3) the resulting rise in cost. In regard to the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head," it appears those criteria no longer govern NHRA's position on such matters.

So let's examine those three criteria.

1-2) Need and ensuring integrity and definition: With a large selection of mass-produced after-market cylinder heads available, there is no need for this type of head for a class with restrictions such as valve guide angle, valve spacing, etc., or in following integrity and definition. Aside from the 1993-98 fuel-injection LT1, there never was a production 265-400 cubic inch small block Chevrolet cylinder head offered with angled spark plugs.

3) Cost (a key element in allowing the legalization of the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head"). The large number of after-market cylinder heads currently available and accepted by NHRA assures some key elements are maintained, such being produced to original OEM specifications -- valve guide angles are the proper 23-degree spacing, the chamber spacing maintains OEM specs, etc. These elements are a must as these heads are designed first to be sold to the much larger market than NHRA Super Stock racers an engine-builders in as much as Super Stock head sales are a very small fraction of the market and manufacturers must be sure that these heads will be able to used in a variety of applications so as to maximize their return on investment. This in turn also ensures that no matter what major manufacturer an engine-builder or head-porter chooses, they will do their own modifications. In short, everyone is pretty much working with a "spec" cylinder head.

The "Jones Porter Cylinder Head," would be great for a class that would allow any type of modifications such as changing the valve guide angles, moving valve position, chamber location, water jacket modifications, more extensive porting , custom ports, etc. However, allowing this type of head to be used in tradition Super Stock classes only guarantees costs will climb and class integrity will be compromised. Any creative cylinder head porter will use the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head" to morph current rules, making tech difficult at a time NHRA appears to be relaxing technical inspection. This would open a new area of confusion and more problems, and how to handle the next wave of porter heads. Allow one, how does NHRA say no to the next applicant? Recall the 1968 Mopar Hemi head, where the rules were allowed to morph to the point where a similar problem surfaced with the 1968 Hemi cars and before NHRA knew it, the Hemis ended up getting their own class, which has since lost some of its cache. NHRA might be better served to revisit some of the mistake of the past before making decisions that might guarantee more in the future.

In short, allowing the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head" and others like it to be made legal in traditional Super Stock class racing a will only guarantee costs to go up and controversy and problems to follow.

john ancona · 04-11-2018, 02:46 AM

This is not good for super stock and if accepted it will eventually find its way into stock eliminator. And if you disagree just look at the cam 54 mm cam tunnel that started in super stock . This never ending line to the door step of NHRA is going to speed up the demise of super stock and take stock with it .We could debate the I eliminated the " Bogus welding " all day, but just how do you get the exhaust port from the stock configuration to the welded (brazed) D port we are using now. Tilburg is correct NHRA has been going down the aftermarket path for some time.and the results
are creating to higher costs .

Jeff Dona SS3269 · 04-11-2018, 09:19 AM

Do these heads come with the seats and guides installed from the manufacturer or is this done at your shop Eric? Jeff Dona ss 3269

Erik Jones · 04-11-2018, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Dona SS3269

Do these heads come with the seats and guides installed from the manufacturer or is this done at your shop Eric? Jeff Dona ss 3269

Jeff

The castings are delivered to me in raw form. I machine the cylinder head to meet exactly what i sent to NHRA. There are 3 machining operations that cover the 3 cylinder heads i submitted, 283 thru 327 (small seat dia), 327 thru 400 (large seat dia) and LT1 (large seat,center bolt cover and water holes).

I will be posting a picture later of the valve bowl with seats installed to show how moving the seat and guide location would require welding just like it does on the 4 other replacement castings.

Erik Jones · 04-11-2018, 10:53 AM

Joey, John, Sean

You guys have some good points and let me try to explain those.

"Controlling the Casting or Manipulation of the castings"
Its not as easy as it sounds, when i started this whole deal it was a big eye opener... I thought the foundries could "just add material and make me a head". Any time you want to move or add material it requires a mold to do so and they are expensive to do this. The process of casting a head is very expensive. This casting has everything it needs to prep a current day super stock head to legal specs with no welding....I have no need to "Hand scrape or manipulate the casting". It is available to everyone to use in the same form.

"Moving guide locations"
The heads are sold with seats and guides installed and it would require the same amount of work and welding to move them as it would for the 4 other heads on the list. You still need to remove the seats and guides, weld them up (including the valve bowl) do your offset and re install the seats/guides. Same process as you would do for any cylinder head.

"Bogus welding"
I meant this in the form of external welding. All welding inside the ports is legal, external is not.

"Cost"
To prep a set of current day heads for Super Stock you will have a min of $7500 in them and can be as high as 14K. If you start with a casting like the FE Pro Port head from Edelbrock you eliminate about 2K in welding...This was the whole point of doing this when they submitted that head 8 years ago. Another side to this is if you destroy a head it is way easier to take a new casting, run a cnc program thru it, cut the valve job and flat mill it and be done.

In my opinion, the combos that have a replacement head right now make it unfair to those who don't... now everyone has the same part to start with and it is up to the head porter and engine builder to make a better piece instead of having a better part to start with.

SS734 · 04-11-2018, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Jones

Joey, John, Sean

You guys have some good points and let me try to explain those.

"Controlling the Casting or Manipulation of the castings"
Its not as easy as it sounds, when i started this whole deal it was a big eye opener... I thought the foundries could "just add material and make me a head". Any time you want to move or add material it requires a mold to do so and they are expensive to do this. The process of casting a head is very expensive. This casting has everything it needs to prep a current day super stock head to legal specs with no welding....I have no need to "Hand scrape or manipulate the casting". It is available to everyone to use in the same form.

"Moving guide locations"
The heads are sold with seats and guides installed and it would require the same amount of work and welding to move them as it would for the 4 other heads on the list. You still need to remove the seats and guides, weld them up (including the valve bowl) do your offset and re install the seats/guides. Same process as you would do for any cylinder head.

"Bogus welding"
I meant this in the form of external welding. All welding inside the ports is legal, external is not.

"Cost"
To prep a set of current day heads for Super Stock you will have a min of $7500 in them and can be as high as 14K. If you start with a casting like the FE Pro Port head from Edelbrock you eliminate about 2K in welding...This was the whole point of doing this when they submitted that head 8 years ago. Another side to this is if you destroy a head it is way easier to take a new casting, run a cnc program thru it, cut the valve job and flat mill it and be done.

In my opinion, the combos that have a replacement head right now make it unfair to those who don't... now everyone has the same part to start with and it is up to the head porter and engine builder to make a better piece instead of having a better part to start with.

What is the Edelbrock casting number you are refering to regarding the accepted "FE pro-port head"?

Rich Pinoski SS734

SS734 · 04-11-2018, 12:05 PM

I see it now Edelbrock 61857

Erik Jones · 04-11-2018, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS734

I see it now Edelbrock 61857

Sorry Rich, i just saw your post. That is correct i don't know exactly when it was approved but it has been a long time.

nhramnl · 04-11-2018, 01:48 PM

Those of us who have been around Super Stock racing for a few decades have heard this kind of wishful thinking story before. "My new product will lower costs because it will eliminate manual machining or modification steps that you're currently paying for. And if you break a piston/head/block, you just order-up a replacement and you're good to go". Through all of those situations, I have never seen the cost (or complexity) of anything go down. And the net effect of every single one of these "make it faster and cheaper for the racer" initiatives was Super Stock moving further and further away from what it was when it was conceptualized, decades ago. When one guy starts using these heads, everybody will see that, to remain competitive, they will all have to. And almost immediately, cheaters will begin illegally modifying the one-off, never-offered-in-production heads, and NHRA will be forced (because they have no backbone) to make heads with changed valve angles, raised, lowered or back-cut intake and exhaust flanges (to yield straighter and/or larger ports), etc. legal. And our already virtually Comp cars move another increment away from any kind of affordability. As I said in a post couple of months ago, wonder why Sportsman drag racing is dying? Because nobody can afford a $150,000 Super Stock car. I don't begrudge Mr. Jones his idea or his products; I just don't understand what problem they solve, versus the problems they'll create.

04-11-2018, 01:21 AM	#12
Sean Cour Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 445 Likes: 110 Liked 79 Times in 30 Posts	Re: Jones Head - Racers Only In the past, the decision to allow replacement aftermarket parts such as the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head" for traditional Super Stock class cars, NHRA has taken the position to address three major points -- 1) the need, 2) the impact on preserving integrity and definition of the class, and 3) the resulting rise in cost. In regard to the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head," it appears those criteria no longer govern NHRA's position on such matters. So let's examine those three criteria. 1-2) Need and ensuring integrity and definition: With a large selection of mass-produced after-market cylinder heads available, there is no need for this type of head for a class with restrictions such as valve guide angle, valve spacing, etc., or in following integrity and definition. Aside from the 1993-98 fuel-injection LT1, there never was a production 265-400 cubic inch small block Chevrolet cylinder head offered with angled spark plugs. 3) Cost (a key element in allowing the legalization of the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head"). The large number of after-market cylinder heads currently available and accepted by NHRA assures some key elements are maintained, such being produced to original OEM specifications -- valve guide angles are the proper 23-degree spacing, the chamber spacing maintains OEM specs, etc. These elements are a must as these heads are designed first to be sold to the much larger market than NHRA Super Stock racers an engine-builders in as much as Super Stock head sales are a very small fraction of the market and manufacturers must be sure that these heads will be able to used in a variety of applications so as to maximize their return on investment. This in turn also ensures that no matter what major manufacturer an engine-builder or head-porter chooses, they will do their own modifications. In short, everyone is pretty much working with a "spec" cylinder head. The "Jones Porter Cylinder Head," would be great for a class that would allow any type of modifications such as changing the valve guide angles, moving valve position, chamber location, water jacket modifications, more extensive porting , custom ports, etc. However, allowing this type of head to be used in tradition Super Stock classes only guarantees costs will climb and class integrity will be compromised. Any creative cylinder head porter will use the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head" to morph current rules, making tech difficult at a time NHRA appears to be relaxing technical inspection. This would open a new area of confusion and more problems, and how to handle the next wave of porter heads. Allow one, how does NHRA say no to the next applicant? Recall the 1968 Mopar Hemi head, where the rules were allowed to morph to the point where a similar problem surfaced with the 1968 Hemi cars and before NHRA knew it, the Hemis ended up getting their own class, which has since lost some of its cache. NHRA might be better served to revisit some of the mistake of the past before making decisions that might guarantee more in the future. In short, allowing the "Jones Porter Cylinder Head" and others like it to be made legal in traditional Super Stock class racing a will only guarantee costs to go up and controversy and problems to follow. __________________ Sean Cour T6066 ladle

04-11-2018, 02:46 AM	#13
john ancona Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: California Posts: 146 Likes: 2 Liked 102 Times in 31 Posts	Re: Jones Head - Racers Only This is not good for super stock and if accepted it will eventually find its way into stock eliminator. And if you disagree just look at the cam 54 mm cam tunnel that started in super stock . This never ending line to the door step of NHRA is going to speed up the demise of super stock and take stock with it .We could debate the I eliminated the " Bogus welding " all day, but just how do you get the exhaust port from the stock configuration to the welded (brazed) D port we are using now. Tilburg is correct NHRA has been going down the aftermarket path for some time.and the results are creating to higher costs . __________________ John Ancona 705 STK / SS

04-11-2018, 09:19 AM	#14
Jeff Dona SS3269 Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 40 Likes: 14 Liked 54 Times in 8 Posts	Re: Jones Head - Racers Only Do these heads come with the seats and guides installed from the manufacturer or is this done at your shop Eric? Jeff Dona ss 3269

04-11-2018, 10:53 AM	#16
Erik Jones Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 61 Likes: 1 Liked 48 Times in 6 Posts	Re: Jones Head - Racers Only Joey, John, Sean You guys have some good points and let me try to explain those. "Controlling the Casting or Manipulation of the castings" Its not as easy as it sounds, when i started this whole deal it was a big eye opener... I thought the foundries could "just add material and make me a head". Any time you want to move or add material it requires a mold to do so and they are expensive to do this. The process of casting a head is very expensive. This casting has everything it needs to prep a current day super stock head to legal specs with no welding....I have no need to "Hand scrape or manipulate the casting". It is available to everyone to use in the same form. "Moving guide locations" The heads are sold with seats and guides installed and it would require the same amount of work and welding to move them as it would for the 4 other heads on the list. You still need to remove the seats and guides, weld them up (including the valve bowl) do your offset and re install the seats/guides. Same process as you would do for any cylinder head. "Bogus welding" I meant this in the form of external welding. All welding inside the ports is legal, external is not. "Cost" To prep a set of current day heads for Super Stock you will have a min of $7500 in them and can be as high as 14K. If you start with a casting like the FE Pro Port head from Edelbrock you eliminate about 2K in welding...This was the whole point of doing this when they submitted that head 8 years ago. Another side to this is if you destroy a head it is way easier to take a new casting, run a cnc program thru it, cut the valve job and flat mill it and be done. In my opinion, the combos that have a replacement head right now make it unfair to those who don't... now everyone has the same part to start with and it is up to the head porter and engine builder to make a better piece instead of having a better part to start with. __________________ Erik Jones

04-11-2018, 12:05 PM	#18
SS734 Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 27 Likes: 5 Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Jones Head - Racers Only I see it now Edelbrock 61857

04-11-2018, 01:48 PM	#20
nhramnl Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 504 Likes: 7 Liked 352 Times in 82 Posts	Re: Jones Head - Racers Only Those of us who have been around Super Stock racing for a few decades have heard this kind of wishful thinking story before. "My new product will lower costs because it will eliminate manual machining or modification steps that you're currently paying for. And if you break a piston/head/block, you just order-up a replacement and you're good to go". Through all of those situations, I have never seen the cost (or complexity) of anything go down. And the net effect of every single one of these "make it faster and cheaper for the racer" initiatives was Super Stock moving further and further away from what it was when it was conceptualized, decades ago. When one guy starts using these heads, everybody will see that, to remain competitive, they will all have to. And almost immediately, cheaters will begin illegally modifying the one-off, never-offered-in-production heads, and NHRA will be forced (because they have no backbone) to make heads with changed valve angles, raised, lowered or back-cut intake and exhaust flanges (to yield straighter and/or larger ports), etc. legal. And our already virtually Comp cars move another increment away from any kind of affordability. As I said in a post couple of months ago, wonder why Sportsman drag racing is dying? Because nobody can afford a $150,000 Super Stock car. I don't begrudge Mr. Jones his idea or his products; I just don't understand what problem they solve, versus the problems they'll create.