Could Super Modified been different if?

blkjack · 12-26-2010, 09:08 AM

Looking back at the Car Craft concept of Super Modified. Could things really have been different if certain rules would have been enforced or never changed? When did it go really down the slippery slope of money/ technology? To me it started with the SRD Chevy II's and eventually by the Arlen Fadely FoMoCo/Super Stock Magazine backed Maverick. The class started out to be somewhere between super stock and modified and today has morphed into a "junior pro stock" class. Was the original intent of the class shear genius on Rick Voegelin's part........or just a pipedream for a doorslammer's panacea?

Charlie Yannetti · 12-28-2010, 11:37 AM

I really don't think, back in the day, that it was ever the intent for Super Modified to be what it is today.. BUT.. with Comp Eliminator being the most innovative class on the planet, and chassis builders being what they are today, the evolution of Super Mod took place..

I don't consider Super Mod to be Junior Pro Stock, as that spot has already been taken by the full bodied altered classes.. but I would definitely agree that the cost of putting together a Super Mod car has become ridiculous.. and unfortunately, because of index adjustments, Super Mod racers will have to spend even more to be competitive..

I feel that eventually, and with today's economy, the cost will bring Super Mod, and Comp itself, to a grinding halt.. just my opinion

FED 387 · 12-28-2010, 12:58 PM

The "original intent" of Super Mod was to provide an entry level set of classes to compete in Modified Eliminator without the cost of Tunnel rams/multiple trick carbs or ported heads-extensive engine/body modifications etc

These were the basic rules as I remember them

There were 3 classes of V8 engines

A--big blocks only
B-canted valve head engines-basically small block Ford
C-inline valve head engines-all other V8 engines

Following were the basic rules

All had carb restrictions

tire size restrictions

limited to a fiberglass hood no other liteweight body parts unless originally OEM factory equipped

Full interior/exterior in all cars

Tires(rear) basically had to fit in the wheelwells 10.0 or 10.5 if I remember

Engines had to fit in the engine compartment without extensive massaging of sheetmetal-Factory engine had to match body used (ford/ford) etc

Stock valve jobs NO porting/polishing of heads

Minimum weight per class restrictions

No Vegas/Pintos little cars basically ChevyII/Nova--Firebird--Camaro--Mustang---Maverick--Aspen--Volare --cudas/darts etc. type cars

That was it!!!!

Worked great until Rickie Smith, MikeEdwards and Arlen Fadely showed up with the Mavericks next thing ya know they allowed port matching then milled air horns 5 speeds etc. and ya know the rest of the story there was no more ECONO in super Modified.

randy wilson · 12-28-2010, 01:28 PM

They could still do it today with spec heads policed by the manufacturer, but it would take the money out of it. A sort of econo-mod installed in comp. Someday, they will have to look at it or it too, will pass like mod. eliminator.

blkjack · 12-28-2010, 02:00 PM

Maybe some of us need to refresh our memories
http://www.competitionplus.com/2006_...rmodified.html

Maybe the biggest mistake was dividing it into 3 categories(A,B,&C).

Another mistake was not limiting it to "pony cars"

Another mistake was not making it more of a spec 302 type (3 "x4") motor with an "accepted" list of OEM casting number heads,etc.

Another mistake was probably lifting the 10.5 tire rule too.

The people with big money to spend went after that class like white on rice.......while Jon Kaase, Ron Hutter, Roush, and others just smiled.

blkjack · 12-28-2010, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FED 387

Worked great until Rickie Smith, MikeEdwards and Arlen Fadely showed up with the Mavericks next thing ya know they allowed port matching then milled air horns 5 speeds etc. and ya know the rest of the story there was no more ECONO in super Modified.

No, milled air horns are not accepted. The 4+1 Doug Nash trannys were 4 speeds .........but essentially you are right. The econo intent lasted 1 season.

randy wilson · 12-28-2010, 03:21 PM

Sounds like, if they had left it alone, it would have survived.

Ed Wright · 12-30-2010, 11:55 AM

Some of the rules listed are wrong.
A, B & C were lbs/cubic inch.
Seems like a was 8.5 lbs, B was 9.5 lbs and C was 10.5 lbs.

A/SM did not have to be a big block. I took a shot at it with a 400" sbc.

B/SM did not have to be canted valve engines, still lbs/cubic inch. Lots of 331" sbc there.

C/SM was allowed canted valves one year. Fadley won C/SM at Indy that year but was bounced due to a displacement error. His crank was not what he ordered and he failed to measure it. Something like one cubic inch big at tear down. Voglen should have won. Fadley took him out early. I was dead late in the class semis, and an eleven second car ended up winner when Fadley was tossed. Rick Voglin was robbed. Next year C/SM was inline valves only. Seemed like C/SM had like 30 or so cars at Indy that year?

IHRA had Super Mod as a heads up eliminator at 10 lbs. Looser head rules, 11.5" tires and 850 carbs instead of NHRA's 750 cfm, 10.5" tire rules. Any GM head castings allowed. Rickey Smith pretty much ruled there.

NHRA allowed certain number 750 cfm carbs, pretty much same as SS rules there, but the choke butterfly & shaft could be removed.

Cylinder heads had to be assembly line available castings, no "Bowtie", "Turbo", etc. Porting allowed was chambers, and 1" below the bottom of the valve seats in the bowls, and 1/2" back from the intake flange for port matching. Any valve size.
There was a difference in heads. I had four sets from big name shops doing Modified heads. Won't name them all, but Lee Shepherd's were nearly a tenth quicker than anybody else's. They showed much better on my flow bench too. Shows how criticle the valve job & seat/bowl area is.

Btw, the Fadley & Mike Edwards car is one and the same.

randy wilson · 12-30-2010, 05:42 PM

Seems to me that it could be done today, with, say, the Brodix spec head, cars 75 and earlier, to give the old cars a showplace. Not much oversight, have a Brodix rep there to say yea, or nay. Check cubes, tire size, and fuel. Also, make the drivers have to clutch between gears, could be checked with rollbar mounted camera. I know Knoxville Ia. does it in 360 sprints, and is 20,000 cheaper, and a bigger turn out then 410. No one would have a head advantage. Is it possible? What you think Ed? At the divisional level.

FED 387 · 12-30-2010, 07:26 PM

Well I had it kinda right hell it was about 30-35 years ago-we pitted next to Vogelin at the Winters first big race for that car---it was basically a car straight from a used car lot with motor/trans/wheels added-only ran Ihra part of one season-we ran M/P anyway and tore down Fadely every chance we got ,more of a harassment kinda thing than actually looking for anything--hell we new he was legal just snooping--we made him take off door upholstery panels /pull a head on one side to check for porting and check the stroke on the other side---

12-26-2010, 09:08 AM	#1
blkjack Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Belle Vernon, PA Posts: 283 Likes: 26 Liked 52 Times in 17 Posts	Could Super Modified been different if? Looking back at the Car Craft concept of Super Modified. Could things really have been different if certain rules would have been enforced or never changed? When did it go really down the slippery slope of money/ technology? To me it started with the SRD Chevy II's and eventually by the Arlen Fadely FoMoCo/Super Stock Magazine backed Maverick. The class started out to be somewhere between super stock and modified and today has morphed into a "junior pro stock" class. Was the original intent of the class shear genius on Rick Voegelin's part........or just a pipedream for a doorslammer's panacea? Last edited by blkjack; 12-26-2010 at 09:12 AM.

12-28-2010, 11:37 AM	#2
Charlie Yannetti Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alpine, NJ Posts: 564 Likes: 184 Liked 185 Times in 81 Posts	Re: Could Super Modified been different if? I really don't think, back in the day, that it was ever the intent for Super Modified to be what it is today.. BUT.. with Comp Eliminator being the most innovative class on the planet, and chassis builders being what they are today, the evolution of Super Mod took place.. I don't consider Super Mod to be Junior Pro Stock, as that spot has already been taken by the full bodied altered classes.. but I would definitely agree that the cost of putting together a Super Mod car has become ridiculous.. and unfortunately, because of index adjustments, Super Mod racers will have to spend even more to be competitive.. I feel that eventually, and with today's economy, the cost will bring Super Mod, and Comp itself, to a grinding halt.. just my opinion

12-28-2010, 12:58 PM	#3
FED 387 VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,378 Likes: 429 Liked 304 Times in 163 Posts	Re: Could Super Modified been different if? The "original intent" of Super Mod was to provide an entry level set of classes to compete in Modified Eliminator without the cost of Tunnel rams/multiple trick carbs or ported heads-extensive engine/body modifications etc These were the basic rules as I remember them There were 3 classes of V8 engines A--big blocks only B-canted valve head engines-basically small block Ford C-inline valve head engines-all other V8 engines Following were the basic rules All had carb restrictions tire size restrictions limited to a fiberglass hood no other liteweight body parts unless originally OEM factory equipped Full interior/exterior in all cars Tires(rear) basically had to fit in the wheelwells 10.0 or 10.5 if I remember Engines had to fit in the engine compartment without extensive massaging of sheetmetal-Factory engine had to match body used (ford/ford) etc Stock valve jobs NO porting/polishing of heads Minimum weight per class restrictions No Vegas/Pintos little cars basically ChevyII/Nova--Firebird--Camaro--Mustang---Maverick--Aspen--Volare --cudas/darts etc. type cars That was it!!!! Worked great until Rickie Smith, MikeEdwards and Arlen Fadely showed up with the Mavericks next thing ya know they allowed port matching then milled air horns 5 speeds etc. and ya know the rest of the story there was no more ECONO in super Modified.

12-28-2010, 01:28 PM	#4
randy wilson Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: N/A Posts: 882 Likes: 0 Liked 22 Times in 22 Posts	Re: Could Super Modified been different if? They could still do it today with spec heads policed by the manufacturer, but it would take the money out of it. A sort of econo-mod installed in comp. Someday, they will have to look at it or it too, will pass like mod. eliminator. __________________ don,t have one

12-28-2010, 02:00 PM	#5
blkjack Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Belle Vernon, PA Posts: 283 Likes: 26 Liked 52 Times in 17 Posts	Re: Could Super Modified been different if? Maybe some of us need to refresh our memories http://www.competitionplus.com/2006_...rmodified.html Maybe the biggest mistake was dividing it into 3 categories(A,B,&C). Another mistake was not limiting it to "pony cars" Another mistake was not making it more of a spec 302 type (3 "x4") motor with an "accepted" list of OEM casting number heads,etc. Another mistake was probably lifting the 10.5 tire rule too. The people with big money to spend went after that class like white on rice.......while Jon Kaase, Ron Hutter, Roush, and others just smiled.

12-28-2010, 03:21 PM	#7
randy wilson Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: N/A Posts: 882 Likes: 0 Liked 22 Times in 22 Posts	Re: Could Super Modified been different if? Sounds like, if they had left it alone, it would have survived. __________________ don,t have one

12-30-2010, 11:55 AM	#8
Ed Wright Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sand Springs, OK Posts: 8,132 Likes: 896 Liked 389 Times in 168 Posts	Re: Could Super Modified been different if? Some of the rules listed are wrong. A, B & C were lbs/cubic inch. Seems like a was 8.5 lbs, B was 9.5 lbs and C was 10.5 lbs. A/SM did not have to be a big block. I took a shot at it with a 400" sbc. B/SM did not have to be canted valve engines, still lbs/cubic inch. Lots of 331" sbc there. C/SM was allowed canted valves one year. Fadley won C/SM at Indy that year but was bounced due to a displacement error. His crank was not what he ordered and he failed to measure it. Something like one cubic inch big at tear down. Voglen should have won. Fadley took him out early. I was dead late in the class semis, and an eleven second car ended up winner when Fadley was tossed. Rick Voglin was robbed. Next year C/SM was inline valves only. Seemed like C/SM had like 30 or so cars at Indy that year? IHRA had Super Mod as a heads up eliminator at 10 lbs. Looser head rules, 11.5" tires and 850 carbs instead of NHRA's 750 cfm, 10.5" tire rules. Any GM head castings allowed. Rickey Smith pretty much ruled there. NHRA allowed certain number 750 cfm carbs, pretty much same as SS rules there, but the choke butterfly & shaft could be removed. Cylinder heads had to be assembly line available castings, no "Bowtie", "Turbo", etc. Porting allowed was chambers, and 1" below the bottom of the valve seats in the bowls, and 1/2" back from the intake flange for port matching. Any valve size. There was a difference in heads. I had four sets from big name shops doing Modified heads. Won't name them all, but Lee Shepherd's were nearly a tenth quicker than anybody else's. They showed much better on my flow bench too. Shows how criticle the valve job & seat/bowl area is. Btw, the Fadley & Mike Edwards car is one and the same. __________________ Ed Wright 4156 SS/JA Last edited by Ed Wright; 12-30-2010 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Still can't spell...

12-30-2010, 05:42 PM	#9
randy wilson Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: N/A Posts: 882 Likes: 0 Liked 22 Times in 22 Posts	Re: Could Super Modified been different if? Seems to me that it could be done today, with, say, the Brodix spec head, cars 75 and earlier, to give the old cars a showplace. Not much oversight, have a Brodix rep there to say yea, or nay. Check cubes, tire size, and fuel. Also, make the drivers have to clutch between gears, could be checked with rollbar mounted camera. I know Knoxville Ia. does it in 360 sprints, and is 20,000 cheaper, and a bigger turn out then 410. No one would have a head advantage. Is it possible? What you think Ed? At the divisional level. __________________ don,t have one

12-30-2010, 07:26 PM	#10
FED 387 VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,378 Likes: 429 Liked 304 Times in 163 Posts	Re: Could Super Modified been different if? Well I had it kinda right hell it was about 30-35 years ago-we pitted next to Vogelin at the Winters first big race for that car---it was basically a car straight from a used car lot with motor/trans/wheels added-only ran Ihra part of one season-we ran M/P anyway and tore down Fadely every chance we got ,more of a harassment kinda thing than actually looking for anything--hell we new he was legal just snooping--we made him take off door upholstery panels /pull a head on one side to check for porting and check the stroke on the other side---