Dommination of FI cars. - Page 2

neb5445 · 12-15-2007, 01:26 PM

If you look at races, the FI cars can run more mph and lower et at will by dialing this into there computer. Some FI cars are running 300 to 400 pounds of extra weight to slow their cars down.

Bruce Witherspoon · 12-15-2007, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neb5445

If you look at races, the FI cars can run more mph and lower et at will by dialing this into there computer. Some FI cars are running 300 to 400 pounds of extra weight to slow their cars down.

Can ya help me find one of those computers? Mine must be broken.

Jack Matyas · 12-15-2007, 06:09 PM

Bruce--If they send you an extra one of " those" computers please pass it along to me as I see 2008 as a tough season for my C/SA Firebird . Here in D1 there are a boatload of big block 69 Camaros just waiting for a shot at us . As for FI cars running 300-400 lbs heavy that might work when there is only one car in the class but that won't be the case in 2008 as they will all be very populated making for some very good racing.

Dave--I really don't see the domination that you do--maybe its time that you spend a little money or even better try keeping your foot down for all of the 1320 feet. Happy Holidays my friend !!!!!!!!

PS--An even better move would be to ask your son Dean for a ride in that new Firebird that he just bought .

Jack Matyas · 12-15-2007, 08:26 PM

Ed-You're right -over the years I've had many carb cars and really liked several.Here's the problem--I still have several 69 Camaros in my garage and enjoy them a bunch--but I can't bring myself to cut up 40 year old iron--maybe I'm just too much of a purist .

Dave--You're all wet buddy--there is no domination in the stock ranks--as you know there are plenty of big block 69 Camaros in D1 that are just chomping at the bit waiting to have a crack at me in 2008 in my C/SA Firebird . As for you--well you need to spend some money over the Winter my friend, as Stock is getting to be the new wallet class .Happy Holidays.........

PS--Better yet maybe you can get a ride in your son Deans new Firebird stocker...........

Dave Ribeiro · 12-15-2007, 08:33 PM

Jack,

Ed, has a very good point but you already knew that .....It will be interesting to see how many FI don't attend National events, now that all the runs will count... Jack, you also won't be able to run 2-300 lbs heavy any more...Jack, you must be into the meds early, if you don't think the FI cars can't out ET + MPH the carbed cars... But you already know that !!! You will have to be a real good boy and not go to fast, or you we be thrown out of the 1000' club... Also you will get those late nite phone calls from the " FI police " you know who I mean !!!!
You also know with more FI cars its going to be hard to slow them down that much........

" Happy Holidays " Dave...1033/stock

Evan Smith · 12-16-2007, 08:34 AM

On just about all accounts EFI is, and should be, better than carburetion. Factory EFI offers better cold-start, better driveability, far better fuel control for emissions and better fuel economy. Does it offer better power, we don't know because the factory doesn't do back-to-back testing of EFI vs.carburetion. In testing I have done personally, I've seen little difference in peak power production if you have the right carb and manifold. In many cases the carb out-performs EFI. The problem with a Stocker is that you don't have an optimized induction, however, most factory EFI inductions (throttle body and intake) aren't designed for max power either. If any of you carb guys think that we can do magic and turn up the power "with a key stroke" you are completely ignorant and/or grossly misinformed. I recommend you do some serious reading, spend time dynoing these engines or better yet, build a EFI racecar yourself. The great power from modern EFI engines comes from the overall design which offers reduced internal friction, better head design, roller cams and rockers and better materials. It's not just a matter of having fuel injection.

The fact is, who cares what's on top of the engine because we run off HP-to-weight factors, so it's the HP factor that really matters. Like someone stated in an earlier post, anyone can have a tunable MSD with O2 capabilities and fine-tune their carbureted engine. How many of you EFI complainers have this, or data-logging, so you can take advantage of legal technology to build max power? How many have been to a chassis dyno? Very few I bet, because it's easier to complain rather than to work hard.

Here is another reality: Most of our engines only operate in a small rpm window as the car goes down track. So we're only tuning for maximum power in a very short rpm (say 2,500 rpm) window and therefore it comes down to the design of the engine and the tuning ability of the individual to extract maximum power. It doesn't matter if you have a carb or EFI, because the smart builder/tuners will always have the faster cars. This is because they understand air/fuel ratios and how to tune them properly. I spoke with Barry Grant last week at PRI (who by the way, doesn't sell EFI), and he stated that the ONLY way to tune properly (any engine) is by knowing the air/fuel ratio, period. With EFI there is no control of the air entering the engine, just like a carb, what EFI offers is more precise control of fueling--if you know what you are doing. On some EFI engines the intake is plastic and will resist heat soak better than cast iron or aluminum, but this is little consequence for the short duration of a drag race.

Lastly, any of you can sell your old car build a car with the current technology. Segregating cars is not the answer because we will just end up with a class for everyone who shows up at the track. It will be like 5-year old Tee-Ball where there are no winners or losers and everyone gets a trophy. This is racing. It isn't easy (nor should it be) and technology will always advance. With that, there are plenty of EFI cars that can be built on a budget. Just look at Lee Valentine, who built a 5.0 Mustang and ran a second under or more for less than $7,000.

Evan

Speedracer · 12-16-2007, 10:22 AM

From reading the rulebook,I have another question.In the STOCK section,under carburetor,it says that replacement carburetors are permitted provided they are the same model,type,throttle bore,and venturi size.
In the fuel injection wording,it says larger fuel injectors permitted,provided no modifications or redrilling of manifolds is performed.My question is this:Why are larger fuel injectors permitted?
I'm sure there is absolutely no performance gain with a larger fuel injector,so why are they permitted?
Its not the same logic as changing to a larger jet in the carburetor,right?

Chad Rhodes · 12-16-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedracer

From reading the rulebook,I have another question.In the STOCK section,under carburetor,it says that replacement carburetors are permitted provided they are the same model,type,throttle bore,and venturi size.
In the fuel injection wording,it says larger fuel injectors permitted,provided no modifications or redrilling of manifolds is performed.My question is this:Why are larger fuel injectors permitted?
I'm sure there is absolutely no performance gain with a larger fuel injector,so why are they permitted?
Its not the same logic as changing to a larger jet in the carburetor,right?

actualy it is the same as changing the internal metering in a carb, although EFI can "back up" from the max flow rate, where a jet or oriface cannot.

Paul Neal · 12-16-2007, 11:04 AM

As power/performance increases, the "pulse width" (the amount of time the injector is injecting fuel) needs to be made larger. The options, then, are "small" injector with a "large" pulse width; or a "large" injector with a "small" pulse width. It relates to the efficiency of the injector, which as I understand it drops off as you continue to increase pulse width. The use of larger injectors allows the user to keep the injectors in their "sweet spot".

Speedracer · 12-16-2007, 11:23 AM

I'm not going to get into ANY kind of arguments with anybody,but telling a Stock racer (that reads the rulebook) that he needs to use the correct venturi size on his carburetor is not really fair when the car in the other lane has fuel injection.Thats all I'm going to say.

12-15-2007, 01:26 PM	#11
neb5445 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 59 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Dommination of FI cars. If you look at races, the FI cars can run more mph and lower et at will by dialing this into there computer. Some FI cars are running 300 to 400 pounds of extra weight to slow their cars down.

12-15-2007, 06:09 PM	#13
Jack Matyas Live Reporter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Bethlehem , PA -Christmas City , USA Posts: 4,828 Likes: 336 Liked 1,578 Times in 322 Posts	Re: Dommination of FI cars. Bruce--If they send you an extra one of " those" computers please pass it along to me as I see 2008 as a tough season for my C/SA Firebird . Here in D1 there are a boatload of big block 69 Camaros just waiting for a shot at us . As for FI cars running 300-400 lbs heavy that might work when there is only one car in the class but that won't be the case in 2008 as they will all be very populated making for some very good racing. Dave--I really don't see the domination that you do--maybe its time that you spend a little money or even better try keeping your foot down for all of the 1320 feet. Happy Holidays my friend !!!!!!!! PS--An even better move would be to ask your son Dean for a ride in that new Firebird that he just bought . __________________ Jack Matyas 1547 FS/C 2015 Camaro COPO # 62- 2012 Camaro Convertible COPO

12-15-2007, 08:26 PM	#14
Jack Matyas Live Reporter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Bethlehem , PA -Christmas City , USA Posts: 4,828 Likes: 336 Liked 1,578 Times in 322 Posts	Re: Dommination of FI cars. Ed-You're right -over the years I've had many carb cars and really liked several.Here's the problem--I still have several 69 Camaros in my garage and enjoy them a bunch--but I can't bring myself to cut up 40 year old iron--maybe I'm just too much of a purist . Dave--You're all wet buddy--there is no domination in the stock ranks--as you know there are plenty of big block 69 Camaros in D1 that are just chomping at the bit waiting to have a crack at me in 2008 in my C/SA Firebird . As for you--well you need to spend some money over the Winter my friend, as Stock is getting to be the new wallet class .Happy Holidays......... PS--Better yet maybe you can get a ride in your son Deans new Firebird stocker........... __________________ Jack Matyas 1547 FS/C 2015 Camaro COPO # 62- 2012 Camaro Convertible COPO

12-15-2007, 08:33 PM	#15
Dave Ribeiro VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Williamsburg, Va.---USA Posts: 1,827 Likes: 1,612 Liked 56 Times in 27 Posts	Re: Dommination of FI cars. Jack, Ed, has a very good point but you already knew that .....It will be interesting to see how many FI don't attend National events, now that all the runs will count... Jack, you also won't be able to run 2-300 lbs heavy any more...Jack, you must be into the meds early, if you don't think the FI cars can't out ET + MPH the carbed cars... But you already know that !!! You will have to be a real good boy and not go to fast, or you we be thrown out of the 1000' club... Also you will get those late nite phone calls from the " FI police " you know who I mean !!!! You also know with more FI cars its going to be hard to slow them down that much........ " Happy Holidays " Dave...1033/stock __________________ Dave Ribeiro 1033 STK

12-16-2007, 08:34 AM	#16
Evan Smith Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Tampa Posts: 403 Likes: 4 Liked 94 Times in 4 Posts	Re: Dommination of FI cars. On just about all accounts EFI is, and should be, better than carburetion. Factory EFI offers better cold-start, better driveability, far better fuel control for emissions and better fuel economy. Does it offer better power, we don't know because the factory doesn't do back-to-back testing of EFI vs.carburetion. In testing I have done personally, I've seen little difference in peak power production if you have the right carb and manifold. In many cases the carb out-performs EFI. The problem with a Stocker is that you don't have an optimized induction, however, most factory EFI inductions (throttle body and intake) aren't designed for max power either. If any of you carb guys think that we can do magic and turn up the power "with a key stroke" you are completely ignorant and/or grossly misinformed. I recommend you do some serious reading, spend time dynoing these engines or better yet, build a EFI racecar yourself. The great power from modern EFI engines comes from the overall design which offers reduced internal friction, better head design, roller cams and rockers and better materials. It's not just a matter of having fuel injection. The fact is, who cares what's on top of the engine because we run off HP-to-weight factors, so it's the HP factor that really matters. Like someone stated in an earlier post, anyone can have a tunable MSD with O2 capabilities and fine-tune their carbureted engine. How many of you EFI complainers have this, or data-logging, so you can take advantage of legal technology to build max power? How many have been to a chassis dyno? Very few I bet, because it's easier to complain rather than to work hard. Here is another reality: Most of our engines only operate in a small rpm window as the car goes down track. So we're only tuning for maximum power in a very short rpm (say 2,500 rpm) window and therefore it comes down to the design of the engine and the tuning ability of the individual to extract maximum power. It doesn't matter if you have a carb or EFI, because the smart builder/tuners will always have the faster cars. This is because they understand air/fuel ratios and how to tune them properly. I spoke with Barry Grant last week at PRI (who by the way, doesn't sell EFI), and he stated that the ONLY way to tune properly (any engine) is by knowing the air/fuel ratio, period. With EFI there is no control of the air entering the engine, just like a carb, what EFI offers is more precise control of fueling--if you know what you are doing. On some EFI engines the intake is plastic and will resist heat soak better than cast iron or aluminum, but this is little consequence for the short duration of a drag race. Lastly, any of you can sell your old car build a car with the current technology. Segregating cars is not the answer because we will just end up with a class for everyone who shows up at the track. It will be like 5-year old Tee-Ball where there are no winners or losers and everyone gets a trophy. This is racing. It isn't easy (nor should it be) and technology will always advance. With that, there are plenty of EFI cars that can be built on a budget. Just look at Lee Valentine, who built a 5.0 Mustang and ran a second under or more for less than $7,000. Evan __________________ Evan Smith 1798 STK

12-16-2007, 10:22 AM	#17
Speedracer Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 59 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Dommination of FI cars. From reading the rulebook,I have another question.In the STOCK section,under carburetor,it says that replacement carburetors are permitted provided they are the same model,type,throttle bore,and venturi size. In the fuel injection wording,it says larger fuel injectors permitted,provided no modifications or redrilling of manifolds is performed.My question is this:Why are larger fuel injectors permitted? I'm sure there is absolutely no performance gain with a larger fuel injector,so why are they permitted? Its not the same logic as changing to a larger jet in the carburetor,right? Last edited by Speedracer; 12-16-2007 at 10:31 AM.

12-16-2007, 11:04 AM	#19
Paul Neal Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Everett, Ma Posts: 32 Likes: 24 Liked 4 Times in 1 Post	Re: Dommination of FI cars. As power/performance increases, the "pulse width" (the amount of time the injector is injecting fuel) needs to be made larger. The options, then, are "small" injector with a "large" pulse width; or a "large" injector with a "small" pulse width. It relates to the efficiency of the injector, which as I understand it drops off as you continue to increase pulse width. The use of larger injectors allows the user to keep the injectors in their "sweet spot". __________________ Paul Neal 119E TD/SC Dan Page 265" w/ Martin 632 6.490 @ 205.76 ...all motor!

12-16-2007, 11:23 AM	#20
Speedracer Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 59 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Dommination of FI cars. I'm not going to get into ANY kind of arguments with anybody,but telling a Stock racer (that reads the rulebook) that he needs to use the correct venturi size on his carburetor is not really fair when the car in the other lane has fuel injection.Thats all I'm going to say.