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Old 07-18-2008, 12:42 AM   #11
Jim Wahl
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Lightbulb Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?

Dick, I am going to speak to you as "friendly" as I possably can. First of all let me tell you that I believe FWD guys have already paid their dues. Our classes were already completely removed from existance. Then after more than one year of debate, pleading, and not so nice conversations with the various NHRA powers that be I was told "ok, if you want to continue to run FWD classes then you reorganize them into 4 classes period." Compton himself made that desision so you can imagine how much thought was put into it! So I did. Later with the help of Chrysler NHRA agreed to a fifth class for the late model FWD performance cars. Sticks and Autos run together with 100lbs. added to all stick combos. You have NEVER had one kind word for FWD cars. Maybe this escapes most of the RWD racers but believe me us FWD guys see it (see Arts comments above) I bet you don't even consider me a real racer, even though I have been racing class cars since I was 18. Maybe if there weren't people like you slamming our cars we would have better car counts in our classes. I can't count the number of times I have been told I was "brave" to run a FWD car and take the abuse and snide remarks from guys like you. Look, I'm not going to say "you don't even race so why listen to you"., but you got your Top Stock and your Jr. Stock and several other heads up classes. now leave the rest of us alone! Now Larry just told you after driving a FWD Stocker for the first time that it was a "hoot". I agree, it is a hoot. There are many others out there who will agree with Larry and me. I'm sorry but if all I had to chose from was a big block Camaro or a small block Firebird (I had one, ask Woodro) I would never race again. I like to be different! I have a SS small block Dodge sitting in my shop right now. It has been covered up for 21 years because I am having fun racing FWD cars! Now I know you have plenty of money and could build or have built just about any car you desire, but I know also you would never own a FWD race car so I'm going to make it easy for you. I challenge you to come to the Southern S/SS Assn. race in Reynolds next week and I will put you behind the wheel of my AF/S SRT4 Neon FWD Stocker. If after you make a pass or two you can honestly say it wasn't a "hoot" I will pay your air fare back home. Now don't worry, after 20 years of driving FWD race cars nobody has ever questioned the size of my penis so I doubt they they would question a big bad opinionated guy like you.

FWD classes have paid their dues, 1) Greatly reduced classes (slashed by 75%) 2) Combined sticks and autos. 3) Index reductions. Now it's your turn!

"Can FWD run in another Wt break is my question. Can they not compete unless by themselves? That is an honest question. How many wt breaks are needed for just FWD What if they all ran in ONE class and had ONE winner to provide to Eliminator?"

Dick, That question shows exactly how much you know about the situation. That has to be the dumbest question I have ever seen on this forum! How about we run ALL Stocker and Super Stockers in one class and one WT. break then race each other in the final? OMG! Dick, have you completely lost it?
Jim
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Old 07-18-2008, 07:56 AM   #12
Dennis P Chapman
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Default Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?

Amen Jim well said.

Dennis Stock FWD.
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Old 07-18-2008, 10:53 AM   #13
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Default Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Polhill View Post
Tim you'll have to get that converter to stall over 500 rpm before you'll beat anyone.. Hell My escort would take you to the 1/8th mile LOL.. Well to 60 feet anyway
Ouch - being told you'd be out 60' by an Escort is almost as embarrasing as a 12-second comp car - right back at ya.....
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Old 07-18-2008, 01:09 PM   #14
John Warehime
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Default Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?

Thanks to Bill Belden, he's correct, furthermore; the NHRA created the classes, not the racers, so I guess we need as many classes as the NHRA has, if not, they would change them, like when they cut Superstock off at P. Sponsors pay for advertisement, the more cars, the more exposure. If any race is promoted correctly, the fans will come. Baltimore's Preakness is a good example. It's all crap, and most people don't understand what's going on, but it's promoted properly, so it fills up every year.
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Old 07-18-2008, 03:52 PM   #15
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Talking Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?

Anybody got a 1/2 second Steve can borrow for the comp. car? as for the question...do we need to combine anymore classes? We have the F.I. cars in with the carb car now let's let that run for a couple years before we change anything else. my .2 cents is "IF" they were to change anythig it would be go to 1lb weight breaks....but it would have no effect on me so that's why I say to go that way.
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Old 07-18-2008, 09:44 PM   #16
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Default Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?

I have said this before, but a good announcer who knows the cars and knows more about the drivers can make or break a session of stock/super stock for the fans.

The fans need to know that the drivers worked on their cars up until the time they left their driveway, that we drove all night to get to a track just in time to make the first qualifying pass, that we changed a flat trailer tire or zip tied the fender to the trailer on our way to the track. A regular announcer from each division can get to know the drivers as well as their cars. They need to know that a Camaro is a Camaro, but they need to know a little more about each car. Each car and driver has a personality. In my opinion, that is what can make or break the classes. Given some background, it will put a different spin on the races when a SS/EX Cobalt runs Bucky Hess (ex.) first round at Indy.

maybe with alot of tracks putting in new timing and computer systems, there could be sort of a pop-up screen that includes a few things about you or your car that the announcers can work in to their call.

Just look at the driver blogs that NHRA has for the pro's. How many of you read about Angelle Sampey having to take her pet monkey to a shelter in Florida because he got so mean that she could no longer take care of him. That is just one example.

Alot of our older fans relate to the cars, but newer fans from different generations are into information and details. That is what the sanctioning bodies need to supply to them.
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Old 07-18-2008, 11:57 PM   #17
Alan Roehrich
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Post Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?

Uh, I hate to be the guy to break the bad news to you, but Dick Butler was NOT the guy who started Top Stock, OR Jr. Stock for that matter. That would be Division 1 tech man Dave Ley. Dick has only been trying to promote Top Stock and Top Super Stock in Division 3, with some success, at least with Top Stock. I have been helping him. Because some Division 2 racers, about 2 dozen or so, have asked, we've been trying to get Top Stock going in Division 2. So Dick didn't "get classes he wanted", but rather he HELPED some racers to get classes they wanted. No one is paying him, either, he does not get a dime, every penny is paid back to the racers. He drives at his own expense to the races, and has actually driven a thousand miles at his own expense just to help promote the races to potential sponsors. I have yet to see Top Stock take a time trial or anything else from the regular program. It is wildly popular with the racers AND the fans in Division 1. It does fairly well in Division 3, given the limited number of races run so far.

Dick isn't the guy who came up with the idea to consolidate classes, either. That came from other racers, and I also overheard some NHRA people talking about it. Maybe it is a good idea, maybe it isn't. But it might be coming whether we like it or not, so it might be wise to study the idea, and at least be able to give input on it if it comes about.

On the flip side, I disagree completely with Dick's proposal to eliminate a bunch of combinations in an attempt to streamline the classes. If it is in the class guide legitimately, it needs to stay there for people to try. It may or may not be necessary to consolidate the classes further, but it is not necessary to remove cars or combinations. I don't care if it is fast or slow, or even if it is front wheel drive.

Honestly, asking if the front wheel drive cars can competitively run in a class with rear wheel drive cars is a legitimate question. People not familiar with front wheel drive cars probably won't know the answer. So rather than throw a temper tantrum, consider taking the time to give a polite, honest answer as to whether it will work or not, and if it won't, why.

Consider this: Change is inevitable. NOTHING is FOREVER. The sport of drag racing has been in a constant state of change throughout its history. Even in my relatively short time as a diehard fan, from the age of 6 or 7 years old, I've seen radical change from top to bottom, and that only covers a period of less than 40 years.

Further, not all change makes everyone happy. Even no change will not make everyone happy. And remember, the one thing that does not change is that there will be change.

Sportsman racing, and yes class racing as a subset, will change, as it always has. This year we've seen AA class added in Stock, and the fuel injected classes merged. Next year, we already know that "sport compact" cars will come to Super Stock. And we do not know what else will change.

What is sad is that this is supposed to be an adult group, but it never fails that instead of a calm rational discussion, we get name calling and temper tantrums. You see as much of "If I don't get my way I'll take my ball and go home" here as you'll see on any kindergarten playground. Rather than making any real attempt to talk or debate, possibly working towards or at least considering a compromise if nothing else, for the good of the class, we have what amounts to people stomping their feet and holding their breath. Hell, it looks to me like a lot of people can't even agree to disagree with at least decency and mutual respect.

I'm not saying "why can't we all just get along", because that's not really a reasonable goal. I can listen to and respect just about anyone who can state their position with facts and decency rather than a bunch of uncalled for histrionics, and I can accept and respect their opinion, not matter how vehemently I disagree with it.

Whether or not anyone wants it, I'd bet change is coming, and we'd all be a lot better off trying to achieve some sort of workable compromises, rather than refusing to even try. Because if we don't direct the change ourselves, they'll do it the way they want, and you'll get what they give you. And I'm betting very few will like it. Given what I've seen around here in the last few days, I can understand why few people would want to be on the committee, and why NHRA would not want to bother trying to work with the racers when they can more easily just do what they want to.
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Old 07-19-2008, 02:30 AM   #18
Jim Wahl
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Exclamation Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?

Alan, When I said "you got your Top Stock and your Jr. Stock and several other heads up classes." to Dick, I meant collectively. As in: you ALL have your classes. Everyone knows in Dick's world the only kind of racing is heads up. Everything else is just bracket racing and shouldn't be allowed. I don't begrudge you your class, so don't you begrudge me mine. Get it?

Several years ago NHRA said they were going to combine FWD cars with RWD cars, do you remember? With some assistance a study was done. It was determined it wasn't possible. That is when they decided to eliminate them all together. I'll give you an example. I'll use my car. I run BF/S which is a 16lb class. Now, cross that over to RWD classes and you come up with P/SA a 16lb class. Now I have run a best of 13.60 at BF/S weight. My index is 14.95. P/SA index is 13.75. The record in P/SA is currently 12.17. The record in BF/S is currently 13.97. Do you see a disparity there? Now comes the question, why? I won't even get into the physics of "pulling" a car 1320 feet and "pushing" a car that distance. Lets just say that efficiency is on the side of "pushing". Then you get into the parts disparities. There are generally no trick cams (I use a totally bone stock cam) lifters, pistons, superseded heads, rods, cranks, oil pans available for FWD combos. There are also no trick gear ratios for the transmissions. No final drive options either. Basically 90% of a FWD Stocker is truly "stock" They just started making real slicks available for FWD cars about 5 years ago, and there are only 2 or 3 sizes at that. I would say the FWD cars are the only true Stockers running now-a-days. My Spirit from the factory would run in the 18 second range. Could you knock almost 5 seconds off your combo using bone stock parts? No trick transmissions, no unlimited rear gear ratio, no trick cams, pistons, rods, cranks superseded heads, ignitions, computers etc. I hope that answers your question as to why FWD cars can not run equally with RWD cars. Jim
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Old 07-19-2008, 03:53 AM   #19
Alan Roehrich
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Default Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?

Jim, you CAN get pistons, cams, and lifters for your car. You would have to PAY for them just like the rest of us.

We don't get "trick" oil pans, we have to run stock GM pans. We could weld baffles, if necessary. They aren't. I have a scraper and a windage tray. Both could easily be fabricated in any garage where you'd maintain a race car.

There's nothing "trick" about a connecting rod. We have to run stock dimension rods (some can run a different rod, if necessary NHRA will approve something) and the aftermarket will make you any rod you want. If you NEED an upgraded rod, they'll make it and NHRA will approve it. But a stock dimension rod won't make you any faster, even in you manage to get it a few grams lighter.

NHRA offers you .430" lift on your cam or factory lift, whichever is higher (special for FWD), and I run a .390/.410 in the G/S car, cores for your cam are available, and a cam company WILL grind you a stocker style cam. It's even easier and cheaper these days, with computer modeling, and CNC grinders so you don't even have to pay to make a master. They'll even cut you a trick steel core custom from a billet, if you want, just like they will for me.

If you need a flat tappet made, several companies will make you a tool steel flat tappet, and if you want them DLC coated, they'll do that too. Whoever makes the Shubeck style lifter would probably be more than happy to make you a set.

I can't run replacement heads on the G/S car either. It's the original head approved for the car. Some of the fastest rear wheel drive cars in the country run original casting heads.

I have to run a stock crank, nothing trick, a GM forging, blueprinted. You can have yours blueprinted, too. Anyone who can do a Stock blueprint on a 350 Chevy crank can do the exact same thing for you.

JE, CP, Ross, Diamond, or Venolia will make you a set of pistons just likeJE made mine. And you can go through the NHRA piston approval process, just like I did.

Total Seal will make you just about any ring package you can think of, so long as a base ring is available in the bore size. They'll cut them down, they'll make spacers, they'll do a Napier cut, they'll even mix and match oil ring components. So will Childs and Albert, so will Ackerly and Childs, and if you're really industrious, you can get a Speed Pro catalog, and make some of it up yourself out of open stock. I did that long before I started getting Total Seal to do it for me.

If you want to work with the wiring, you can have aftermarket ignition, if you need it. We adapted MSD stuff to computer cars long before there was "plug and play" stuff available. You can do it too, if you need it.

And there are PLENTY of aftermarket EFI computers, and they don't ALL just work on Camaros and Firebirds. Computers are stupid, they just crunch numbers, and read tables. The factory programmed yours, just like they did the ones for Camaros, Corvettes, Firebirds, and Mustangs. An aftermarket programmer can be adapted to reprogram yours, just like it can theirs.

You can have whatever header you need made, or make it yourself. If you want or need one, any number of custom header companies will make them.

Ferrea, REV, Manley, or any number of valve companies will make you a set of stainless under cut valves, too. And they won't be much if any higher than ours are.

No, you can't get aftermarket gear sets or final drives, you do have a handicap there, I agree. About all you have is converter options. As short as some of those slicks are, they shorten up the gear just a little.

But do not try to tell me you can't have parts made for your engine like the rest of us, or you can't tune your computer. I have custom stuff made on a monthly basis, and I've been through the NHRA approval process, the hard way.

Without what you call "trick parts", you are, by your own admission 1.35 under your INDEX, and .37 under the RECORD. If those trick parts that I have supposedly make it not only possible but easy for me to go fast, imagine what they'll do for you, as fast as you are without them!

As a comparison, 1.35 under for me would be a 10.85, and .37 under the record would be a 10.61. Doesn't seem to me like you have it all THAT tough. NHRA would have me down so far it'd take 3 people 8 hours just to load the car in the trailer, and it'd take a month to put it back together. Not to mention a 10.60 would get me enough HP to move up a couple of classes.

I don't begrudge you a class to race your car. But I don't buy the line about not being able to buy parts, except drivetrain parts. And supposedly, it's more efficient to pull a car than to push it. Or so several FWD car makers claim.
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Old 07-19-2008, 05:52 AM   #20
Jim Wahl
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Wink Re: How many classes are needed in Stock or SS?

Alan, I think you missed the whole point of my last post. The question raised was why can't FWD cars compete with RWD cars in the same weight class. I showed you that on my best run ever in great air I ran .15 under the P/SA index which would be the comparable RWD class. I could put twin turbos and a Warren Johnson built engine in the car and never come anywhere near the 12.17 record! There is the problem of traction also. When a FWD car leaves the line the weight transfers to the rear end and makes the front lighter which make the tires spin. The same action is an advantage for a RWD car. Have you ever seen the size tires those Sport FWD guys have to run to get their cars to hook?
Look, I'm not going to battle you on every little point. You have made some good ones. However you are dead wrong on several. Now here is where I am at the advantage, I have run RWD cars for many years in Stock and Super Stock and no, I didn't set the world on fire, much like you, but I do have a good grasp on how they work. You on the other hand I'm betting, have never even worked on a FWD race car let alone driven one, and that's ok with me. But after saying that, I find it hard to believe that you could profess to me that I and the other FWD racers "don't have it so bad". I respectfully am telling you that you know not of what you speak this time! The one thing that sticks out to me is, and I have got to believe most people reading this will agree, is that it is just plain silly to try and say that parts availability are equal between my 2.5 Chrysler and the small block Chevy. Remember FWD was started as an inexpensive route for guys without boatloads of money to enjoy the sport. All I want to do is have fun. All I want is for guys like Dick to realize is that some people have different ideas about things, and I want him to respect that, not try and do away with it! You have never heard ME say there are too many RWD classes and I think we should get rid of them. I constantly hear that from many people on here about FWD cars though. 5 frigging classes! Thats all there are. Can't we all just get along? I will be glad to speak to you one on one Alan my friend the next time I see you but this is my last post on the subject here. You can only beat an old dog so many times before he bites you, I'm afraid I'm gunna bite somebody! Peace. Jim
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