Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Dave Ribeiro

You can change the nose cone & rear bumper and call it a 1977--1978 ??? Make sure you check the NHRA factored HP first , not the factory HP ? Its 60-70 HP difference !! Go Get-em !

Yeah I just checked the sheet for the '77 W-72 400 cars. I mentioned earlier that the Can Am is the only car that could run an auto behind a '77 W-72. But I checked some online info and discovered that the Can Am never came with a stick. So I took another look at the spec sheet. Here's what it says. "Auto only in Can Am". So, earlier, I took that to mean that the Can Am was the only body in which an auto was legal with that engine.

But what they meant was that the Cam Am was legal only with an auto, and not with a stick. The site I checked said they came only with a TH400, and none were produced with a stick. I'm not real familiar with the Can Am, so I'll do a bit more research on 'em. I do like the looks of 'em, for whatever that's worth.

And the hp factor difference is 20hp instead of 60-70.

I just looked at the '78 W-72 specs. The factor is the same as the '77. But there is no note about using a manual only. So, I assume that you can run an auto in a '78. But, the engine is only legal in a Formula or a TA. For '77 it is listed as being legal in the Lemans, including wagons, as well as the Birds and Cam Am. So, one of the '77 Lemans models would probably be the cheapest body you could use, with a W-72 400 / auto.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=317

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=765


Of the later model 400's I still think the '77 180hp 400, in any body except a Bird is the best low comp 400 combo, at 260hp factor. About the only difference I can see in the 2 motors is cam lift. But, since there is no limit on dur, the cam shouldn't make that much difference. But then I've never run either engine, so I'll leave that call for the experts.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

[brent flynn]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Hey Brent, I was busy gathering info for my last post and just saw your post. Them old wagons are cool.

I don't know who's idea it was to make the GTO front available on a wagon, but I think it was a great idea !

I would have to agree... they are cool cars, either way... Im itchin to throw the stuff in mine to make it a legal Stocker, since i have everything...just need bigger rear axle..that 8.2 wouldnt last long...

[Tony Corley]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Yeah, the 403 came with an automatic. But the 400 had only a stick. But, all 2nd gen Bird bodies came with autos, with some engines. So, with the Stock rules as liberal as they are today, why not allow any GM auto tranny, with the same number of gears, in any GM body, regardless of which motor is in the car. Just seems like a waste of a fairly cheap source of possible Stocker bodies. Cause there ain't too many guys gonna build a stick car, given the bracket racing nature of today's Stock class..

Have you or somebody else who races the '93 Cobra you are referring to, ever petitioned NHRA to allow an auto for it ?

I'm not racing a 93 Cobra in Stock. I would if I could run automatic. I am building an '89 Coupe for M/N Stock Auto. Truth is, I'm more of a purist at heart. I like the fact that the cars have to run the basic combo as produced.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by brent flynn

...just need bigger rear axle..that 8.2 wouldnt last long...

I'm glad you brought that up. So what is the cheapest way to come up with a rear that will last ? Will all the GM '68-'72 A-body 12 bolt & 8.5" ten bolts, bolt right in ?

I assume that all BBC '68-'72 A-bodies had one that would work ? It seems that I remember reading that some Olds and Buick '71 & '72 A-bodies had one. And I think I read that the 455 T-37's had 12 bolts ? Not sure tho. Lots of guys are trying to get about $1500 or more for an original 12 bolt. Does anybody have all the info on this subject ?

Then, of course, for those on an unlimited budget, most of the rear end specialty companies can fix you up for about $3000 or a little more.

Ebay usually has some used and rebuilt 12 bolts listed. But the shipping is probably high on top of the purchase price.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...r+end&_sacat=0

[brent flynn]

Originally Posted by oldskool

I'm glad you brought that up. So what is the cheapest way to come up with a rear that will last ? Will all the GM '68-'72 A-body 12 bolt & 8.5" ten bolts, bolt right in ?

I assume that all BBC '68-'72 A-bodies had one that would work ? It seems that I remember reading that some Olds and Buick '71 & '72 A-bodies had one. And I think I read that the 455 T-37's had 12 bolts ? Not sure tho. Lots of guys are trying to get about $1500 or more for an original 12 bolt. Does anybody have all the info on this subject ?

Then, of course, for those on an unlimited budget, most of the rear end specialty companies can fix you up for about $3000 or a little more.

Yep, the Buick is the way to go...you dont want the olds rear, as im pretty sure they are some weird deal... In my case, i can legally run a BOP hoghead from the early 60s, since its legal to run a rear axle from the same manufacturer, and i have a good selection of go fast parts for it. I would just have to get it narrowed, and have all the brackets and perches relocated...but an 8.5 would be ok, with all the good stuff in it...ring and pinion would take a beating, but probably hold up fairly well...but, if i can ever get the funds together, i will have the big Pontiac rear axle retrofitted...

[oldskool]

Yeah, my engine guy has a 66 GTO bracket car. The 12 bolt was all he needed til he got passed the high 9's. Then he wiped it out. So now he recommend's something stronger, for anything below a real high 9.

He also chose the big, chunk type Pontiac. What were they, something like '58-'64 ? But as you say, setting one up ain't easy or cheap. A 12 bolt or 8.5' ten bolt will be strong enuff for me.

For those interested, this place sells parts for the big Olds/Pontiac rear.

http://fabcraftmetalworks.com/

I wonder how much the big rear will slow a car down ? With the extra rotating weight, it has to take a little more hp to turn it, huh ?

[oldskool]

OK, I've been lookin at some of the possible bodies I could run. As indicated by the thread title, I like Firebirds. I just think they look cool and make great race cars.

But, as most of you guys know, the cars that look best are not always the best car to race. There are a lot of other factors to consider. And one of the main factors to consider is the hp factor of the engine that is legal for the body you'd like to use.

Now, I've already mentioned that I'd like to run a 455, and gave the reasons why. But, since I also have several sets of 6x heads, I'd consider running a 400 engine. Now we went thru a discussion of the '77-'79 W-72 and decided that the hp factor is too high at 290hp, and you can't run an auto in a '79.

But, until there is a significant refactor of the '77 180hp 400 engine, it appears to be a decent choice for a Stocker at 260hp. But, if you run that engine in a Bird, the factor for the same exact engine is 283hp. So I reckin that means that there have been several makin some noise with that engine in a Bird. I guess it's just the old " go too quick and git hit with a refactor" game, that many of you guys are very familiar with.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

Anyhow, since the '77 Bird with a 400 doesn't look too good at 283hp, and I don't really wanna run a 350, I'll consider the '77 400 @ 260hp in a non-Bird body. Now I figure it would be a gamble, because if some of the quick guys decide to run this combo and they make a little noise, then it could become a bad combo quick.

But, for the sake of discussion, I'll discuss some of the possible bodies that can be used with this engine. Just so the post won't be quite so long, I'll stop it here and continue in the next post.

[HandOverFist]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Fire...US_Cars_Trucks

[oldskool]

OK, here's all the bodies that can run the 180hp 400 engine, There are a few more wagons on page 2.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=764

Now I briefly touched on this in posts # 97 &100. But just to refresh, I discovered from checking last year's division 4 Stocker entries, that there were fewer cars in K/SA and N/SA than most other classes I could run. If you run your index or just barely below it, you need to avoid heads up runs with cars in your class. So I decided to look at which '77 bodies would make it into these classes using the 180hp 400.

As I'm sure most of you guys know without even looking, K is a 13.00lbs/hp class, and N is a 14.50 lbs/hp class. The K/SA index is 12.65, and N/SA is 13.00.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

So, let's look at the cars that will fit in K/SA. I'll kick out the Can Am right off, because they are now high $ collector cars. That leaves all the Catalina, Bonneville, and the 2-door Lemans models. Now, for weight transfer, I figure the shorter wb cars will work better. So if this is the only consideration, the Lemans win with their 112" wb. But, with only a 116" wb, I don't think traction will be a problem with the Cats or Bonnies. They're the same wb as the GP.

Well, I could race a Lemans, but as I've mentioned, I just really don't like the look of the sloped rear deck of the '73-'77 models. So, I Googled up some pics of the Cats and Bonnies. After checkin 'em out as much as I could online, I chose a 2-door Bonnie as my #1 pick.

But, it needs to be the base model Bonnie, not the Broughm. And the reason is not just for looks. I'll show some pics to illustrate this, but the main reason for choosing the base model is because it has more rear side glass than the Broughm. The reason this is important to me is for side vision.

Because of my experience in bracket racing, I discovered the importance of being able to see EXACTLY where your opponent is as you near the finish line. Mirrors don't help in a close finish. If you're the slower car and in the left lane, you need to be able to see the car in the right lane as early as possible when you're close to the finish line. So, the more right side glass you have, the sooner you can see your opponent. Hey, it's called 'brakelight racing" by some, and for good reason.

Now, I better stop right now and say this. I have read enuff on this site to realize that SOME (not all) class racers do not hold bracket racers in very high esteem. Many think that bracket racers are too dumb and / or lazy to build a class car. While that may be true in some cases, it is certainly not true in all cases ! Hey, there are a LOT of class racers who also run bracket. I'd say that most choose bracket racing because that is all their local tracks race, they can build a competitive car MUCH cheaper(with a few dime rockets being the exceptions), they are not limited by so many rules, and they can run for much larger purses than Stockers, at many events throughout the country, and have a chance to beat the high $ cars with their low budget ride. That's just reality.

Another thing that is reality is that except for the same class, heads up rounds, Stock and SS racing today, during the actual, on track competition, uses the exact same rules as bracket racing. Each car sets their own dial(their index or quicker), and if you go quicker than your dial, it's a breakout. That means that a 13 sec car, dialed exactly on his index, can beat a 9 or 10 sec car. That's how it works in bracket racing.

And it's a good thing that Stock & SS class racing uses the bracket system. If not, the classes would probably have vanished long ago. Or it would have become a race between a few rich guys, just like all the no breakout race classes. The guys with the most money to spend, buy the quickest cars, get the best drivers, and win most of the races.

OK, on my next post we'll look closer at the '77 Bonnies.

[oldskool]

OK, if the online info is correct, here is a '77 base model Bonneville. The one I like for racing is the 2-door with the swept back roof line. Back in the old days we called 'em "fastback" . It appears as if the bottom of the rear window is aprox half way of the rear wheel well. This will give that extra little bit of side vision I mentioned.

The 4-door rear window doesn't go as far back, so there is less side vision. And the Landau roof has much less glass and more metal. So this type roof will give less side vision than the other 2-door roof type.

But there is a problem with these cars. There ain't many left. Most have been crushed long ago. They are not a sporty lookin car like a Bird, so there is just no demand for 'em. So, just finding one of 'em may be tuff. Therefore, I'll expand my possible choices to provide a better chance of finding a suitable car.