Ol' Fart's Firebird Fantasy

[oldskool]

OK ya'll, I've been encouraged to start my own thread. So here goes. I reckin my story started way back around 1963 or so when the GTO was born. A popular newspaper in my area started running ads about the GTO. And many of the ads would have a Tiger in 'em. Well, it was love at 1st sight, I guess you could say. I collected all the ads I could find and started covering the walls in my room with 'em. Within a couple of years my room had GTO wallpaper ! I also bought the 45rpm record of the GTO song and played it over and over til my family was tired of hearing it.



I suppose you could say that from that time on I was a "Pontiac Freak". There was no doubt in my mind that I would someday drive a GTO of my own. I remember examples of the 1st 3 year model Goats in my home town. The 1st was a red '64, then a light blue '65, then a black '66--all 4-speeds with 3-dueces. I watched 'em cruise around town lookin real cool and then burnin rubber when the law wasn't lookin. Hey, a schoolmate even borrowed his brothers '65 and took some of us guys for a spin. It was awesome ! I'd never ridden in a car that would burn rubber and bark 'em again when shifting. Yeah, the Musclecar era was a great time to be a young gearhead.

Anyhow, fast forward to '69. I was going to college and working all the hours I could at a nearby Pizza Inn. I was only making $1.50 an hour. That's right-- a buck fifty. But you have to understand, things were a lot cheaper back then. So, since I was makin the big bucks, I decided it was time for me to have my very own GTO. So I went down to the Pontiac Dealer to order one. They had a Judge in the showroom. I really liked everything about it, except the color. To me it looked like "Halloween Orange". I told the salesman that I was not about to ride around in no orange car--not even a GTO !

So, I was gonna order one in a different color. But in early '69 that was the only color they came in. Later in the year, other colors were available. But I didn't know that then. So I asked the salesman if I could get the Judge engine and stuff in a reg GTO. He said I could get everything except the rear deck spoiler and the Judge stripes and decals.

So, I ordered it--silver with black int, bench seat with fold down arm rest(so my girlfriend could sit closer to me ), 400 Ram Air 3 engine, close ratio 4-speed, 3.90 posi rear, radio with a rear speaker, and nothing else. Less than 6 weeks later, I was driving down the street past the Pontiac dealer when I met a truck load of new Pontiacs coming down the street. And there it was, in the middle of the bottom row, my silver GTO !

So, I did a "bat turn" and followed the truck to the dealership. I sat and watched as they unloaded all the new Pontiacs. I went in to talk to the salesman. He said they would have to service it out in the shop before I could leave with it. So, we took care of the paperwork, and soon they were thru with it and parked it right outside the showroom door. I hadn't ordered any special wheels, so it came with some rinky dink hub caps. I took 'em off and gave 'em to the salseman.

Then I got in MY GTO and drove off down the street. I'll never forget that feeling as long as I live. That car was a source of great pleasure for me that day and for many years thereafter. Yeah, I love Pontiacs ! So you guys will just have to excuse me if I seem a little prejudice and talk mostly about Pontiacs. And it makes no difference at all, that Pontiacs are no longer made. The last 400 engine came in a '79 model. So except for the little 301, that was it for Pontiac powered cars.

But, because of aftermarket parts, you can now build a Pontiac engine without a single GM part. NHRA even allows many of these parts in Stockers and Super Stockers.

[Danny Ashley]

So what year firebird/engine combo are you wanting to build? Stock or Super Stock?

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Danny Ashley

So what year firebird/engine combo are you wanting to build? Stock or Super Stock?

No decisions made. This thread is to explore possible combos, that might possibly be built to run the index or just slightly under, on a small budget, if such is possible. I think ya'll call 'em "dime rockets" ?

I have a '74 Ventura 2 bracket car now. It has a mild, iron head 455, TH400, 4.10 gears. Runs 7.30's 1/8 mile, footbrakin . But Bill Rink and another record holder got the hp factor up too high to use the '74 GTO body.

I also have a '68 bracket Bird under construction. It has a mild 455 with 6x heads, TH400, 9" converter, and 4.56 gears. Should run about a 7 flat 1/8 mile. I assume that would be a mid 11 sec 1/4 mile ET.

Now this motor would not be legal in a '68 Bird, except in GT/SS. But, a similar engine would work in '71-'76 Birds and A-bodies. To run the Bird in Stock, I'd need a 330hp 400. But Brent has already done a thread on his build with that combo. And I think the hp factor is too high on the 350HO in that model.

[Dwight Southerland]

Have you considered the Ventura 350?

[Jim Hanig]

Listen to Mr Southerland, You need to get the best stuff you can.The cheap wont be cheap in the long run.

[Alan Nyhus]

Geez....if you've got a 74 Ventura that you're already racing, you're halfway there. Make sure and use Dwight's classification guide for any easy way to look at combos and engine specs. -Al

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Default.aspx

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Dwight Southerland

Have you considered the Ventura 350?

Yes, the 350 was the only Pontiac V8 available in the Ventura, including the '74 GTO. But after Bill Rink ran so quick with it, NHRA hit it with big hp refactor. It's up to 277hp now. He switched over to SS with the car and has done quite well with it.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2088

Basically the same engine is only 250hp in '77. That engine has been raced quite successfully.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...spx?ENGINE=763

[Alan Nyhus]

The '68 350HO 320 hp @ 305 factored hp (6/30/08) isn't totally out of line. Pretty stout little motor...good camshaft, darn near 12:1 compression ratio (at max. bore), etc.

The other thing to think about on the Ventura is that the hp factor occurred 11/10/2005. Lacking a bunch of cars running this combo, it seems a review of that factor would be in order by NHRA.

FWIW. -Al

[oldskool]

Again, the main reason for exploring the '76 455 possibilities, is because I already have a running 455 with 6x heads, in my '68 bracket Bird. I can get it running good in the bird and see if it has the potential to run the index in a heavier '76 body.

At 3664lbs, the TA is the lightest body I could run. That's an 11.82 weight break. If I understand the rules correctly, you can add weight to make the next lower class, or take out weight to fit the class better. So, to fit the 11.50 weight break perfectly, that would be 11.5 x 310 = 3565lbs.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2107

That would run H/SA, which has a 12.15 index. Some of you guys who know how to figure all this, please check my calculations and see if I am correct.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

I think my 455 will run at least mid 11's in the '68 Bird. I haven't weighed it, but it should weight just over 3000lbs. So, if I put it in a '76 Bird which weighs 3565, that should slow it down by about .57 sec. So, if the motor runs an 11.50 in the 3000lb Bird, then it should run between 12.00 and 12.10 in the heavier '76 TA, with the same trans, converter and rear gears.

Now I'm not use to figuring out all this stuff. We just ran a '68 Bird at 3300lbs with a 330 hp engine and it came up exactly 10.00. So some of you guys who know how to figure all this out, please check my calculations and see if I'm anywhere in the ball park. Thanks !

[oldskool]

OK, lookin at it from a low budget standpoint, I need to make use of the parts I have, as much as possible. So, what I have the most of is 6x heads. They came on 350's 400's and according to NHRA even on some '76 455's.

So, using the 6x 455 that I already have built, I could run it in any of a long list of Pontiac bodies, from a TA in H/SA to a 5000 lb + wagon in Q/SA.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2107

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2107

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

Now here's where the hp factors come in. The '75 455 had 5c heads, according to NHRA. Well, they are almost identical to the 6x heads. But the '75 455 is factored 10hp lower than the '76. I gather that you would have to carry aprox 100 lbs more weight, which would = about a tenth difference in ET. Is this correct ?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2098

And in '75, according to classracerinfo.com the 455 was not available in the TA. And cars were real heavy back then. The lightest body I could use, weighed over 4000lbs.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2098

The only advantages I can see to using a '76 TA body, besides the fact that they use 6x heads, is that they look a lot better and may be a little more aerodynamic than the '75 A-bodies, big cars and wagons. But is that worth the 10hp penalty ?

One advantage I can see for using one of the big cars is the purchase price of a good body. Most have been crushed long ago. But, if you can find one, they should be a lot cheaper than a good, '76 TA body.

So, for some of you guys who have played these hp factor and weight games, what do you see as the best option of all these '75 & '76 455 combos ?