Time to Revisit the Super Times?

[Chris Williams]

This is a retread of a old topic, but as I sit here trying to decide between SC and TD it's been bugging me. And something Jeff Beckman said the other day made me think of it again.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea behind TD and TS was to a) give people who wanted to go faster, but didn't have the coin for alky or complicated eliminator a place to go below SC and SG, b) give a more fan-friendly race without several seconds on a throttle stop. And it worked, guys who wanted to go faster started to move into those classes, and it's clear that people like to run them and watch them.

This was all pretty cool when TD was in the mid-low 7s. Most guys in SC could simply turn off the stop and get into a field, if only at the bottom of the ladder. Then the arms race began. Now, in several divisions, you need to be in the 6s to even make a field. Without a monster car that's blown or squirting a ton, and well north of 1500hp, you're on the trailer.

So here we are today, that my choice is to run SC, at 8.90 with the car on the stop for a long time, or spend $50k and build an engine to make a TD field at 6.90. Even with a car that'll pull a 7.60 flat out, I've got nowhere to go. Sure I can go race in my local Super Pro and run 7.60 against full-body pickups doing 10.40. But that's really my only other option.

My question, then, is: does it really make sense to have a two-second difference (8.90 to 6.90) in the range of classes? And does it still make sense to have the Super classes at the same index they were when they were created ever so long ago?

I know this is a tired question, and there was this poll done (with terrible questions), and this is supposedly settled. But I think it's worth a revisit.

Here's my proposal:

Turn the Supers (at least SC and SG, I don't know much about Super Street) into much simpler classes. Basic rules are .400 pro tree, electronics and stops allowed, dragsters/door cars/altereds/roadsters/whatever are fine in any of them. Make the indexes really simple and easy to understand: 8.00, 9.00, 10.00? (maybe even an 11.00?). How many times have you had to explain that an 8.989 is way slow, but an 8.899 is too fast? This is simple: if the time starts with a 7 (or 8, or 9...) it's too fast. Virtually anyone today can run one of these classes. You can't get your dragster down to an 8.00? Fine run the 9.00 class.

Not only will it give the faster SC guys a place to race without having to spend a fortune on a motor (or a 6.00 chassis, or get a 3A license and or a -15 suit) but it has the wonderful side effect of cutting the time people are on the stop dramatically. That, along with the easy-to-understand indexes, will make the racing much more fan-friendly.

I know I'm tilting at windmills and this will fall on deaf ears, but what do you all think of this?

[luckydog]

[Jeff Beckman]

This would make people (also known as NHRA employeees), (not to be confussed with the guys working thier asses off for minamum wage at the track) think, and make decisions. Not going to happen. Along with others (racers) who will stand in line to complain, any change hardly seems worth it in our complacent society.

What is needed is a new Real Drag Racing sanctioning body. Started for racers by racers, if I had the money or support I would do it tomorrow.

[C and W Racing]

What is needed is a new Real Drag Racing sanctioning body. Started for racers by racers, if I had the money or support I would do it tomorrow.[/QUOTE]

Come on Jeff, you know you have the money. lol
Chuck

[DIAPERMAN]

Come on Chipmunk dig into that stash

[Bill Baer]

First of all I think there is need for a 7.90 class so to some extent I agree with Chris and I don’t see anything wrong with top dragster as it is.

“This would make people (also known as NHRA employees), (not to be confused with the guys working their asses off for minimum wage at the track) think, and make decisions. Not going to happen. Along with others (racers) who will stand in line to complain, any change hardly seems worth it in our complacent society”

Why should the NHRA change anything? They continually fill their quota for super classes at their national events and have even more super class cars at the divisional events?? As long as racers value Wallys more that money nothing will change.


“Again, eliminate the electronics, and we don't have this problem. And I am in FULL agreement with you, that the current method that people use to race their cars drives the fans away in droves. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for that comment, as I can already see the "the problem is that the tracks don't educate the fans" rebuttals coming. Again, simple solution. Eliminate the electronics, create a 7.90 class, and competitors will start leaving the line at near full throttle again, and SOME of the fans will return (and believe me, I'm not naive enough to think that the .90 classes will EVER generate the fan interest that the nitro categories do)”.

I made the mistake of suggesting something similar a while back and you would have thought I had sexually assaulted someone’s mother!

“In Division 2, NHRA runs 10.0, 11.0 and 12.0 index classes along with Lucas Oil events. They are lots of fun and have essentially "Nostalgia Super Class" rules - no timers, no delay boxes, pro tree, heads up with a breakout. Those classes have a loyal following but won't grow rapidly unless they NHRA phases out the throttle stop classes. But they do attract new racers who have absolutely no interest in Super class racing and would not be spending their money and weekends at the racetrack otherwise.”

Super class racing before throttle stops, was more fun and [U]less expensive.[/U

]“So, all that said, am I going to lead the charge for the ban on all electronics? Absolutely not. I've relegated myself to the fact that these classes are NOT going to change in MY lifetime, and that if I want to race, I can either accept these classes the way they are and enjoy myself while I compete in them, or find other classes to race.”

I too have learned to accept these classes they way they are.

"My only hope is that at some point in time in the future people start to see the REAL issues with these classes, drop their own personal agendas, and work towards the betterment of the sport. But, that will be something my kids can
campaign for, as I'll be in a nursing home or dead by the time any of that happens".

I share this hope but I am not optimistic either

[Dave Steltz]

My .02...

Why would the NHRA even consider changing ? Plenty of guys in the .90 classes show up at each Div race (especially in D1)....

Changing the index's might be a nice thought, but until TS's are not allowed , then guys will still have big speed in slow classes (the guys who can afford it)..

Spectators ? Does anyone really think , that a Divisional level, spectators will all of a sudden start showing up to watch the .90 classes ? If the hosting track cant bring in spectators to watch Alcohol classes, TD and TS, snowmobiles, jets cars, wheelie cars, etc, will taking off the electronics of some of the classes all of a sudden swamp the spectator gates ?

At a national level, the same applies for spectators...they are not coming today to watch anything but the big boys, except for maybe a very small percentage of spectators...and last time I was at a national event, it was packed in pretty good with people...

Heads up ? Hmmm dont think so...Super Gas was never a heads up race, even way back when, guys were letting off or using a bolt stop of something, so its always been a bracket race, just with an even start at the line...and SC and SST just followed...

Even if we were to speed up the classes, you will still have guys with TS's, 9.0 guys will run in the 10.0 class etc...

Face it folks, small series and local events are where its at today for many of us, with the cost of traveling and entry fees, etc...I still like to run at a few Division races, just cause its more about the friends and getting to meet other racers, etc...

I think we all need to stop worrying about what the NHRA wants/gets and go RACE !!!

Have some fun !!!

OK Jason you're up !!!

[voltdr]

Originally Posted by luckydog

Now that is some funny ***** right there..............

We just went through this. Everyone voted to keep thing the same. This is why TD has gotten out of control. If you let the racer decide how fast to go, then the guys with the $$$$$ can take control. I know it is still a bracket race, after qualifying, but it is still intimidating knowing you have to run 6.80s just to get in. Why not make it a 64 car field.

[Chris Williams]

Originally Posted by voltdr

Now that is some funny ***** right there..............

We just went through this. Everyone voted to keep thing the same. This is why TD has gotten out of control. If you let the racer decide how fast to go, then the guys with the $$$$$ can take control. I know it is still a bracket race, after qualifying, but it is still intimidating knowing you have to run 6.80s just to get in. Why not make it a 64 car field.

I beg to differ. Everyone did NOT vote to keep everything the same. In fact more people voted for some kind of change than to keep it the same. They just didn't agree on what to change it to. The choices were lame, so the change vote was split, and the largest single vote was for no change. In short, the survey was poorly done.

I still contend that there is a something wrong with a 2+ second difference between classes. If you can't run mid-high 6's your next choice is to run almost 9 seconds. That's just stupid, especially when the difference in cost is tens of thousands of dollars. You can build a very competent SC car for $50k, but it will cost you twice that to make the TD fields in many divisions.

[Jason Oldfield]

I would contend that to build a competitive S/C car these days, you need to run in the mid-7s, which is exactly where you are at (mid-8s for S/G, and mid-9s for S/St). So, I don't see it as a 2 second difference between the classes, but 1 second, just like every other class.

Sure, there is close to a 2 second difference between the classes when you are running on the stop and the current T/D bump, but that's not a fair comparison in my opinion because you are CHOOSING to run the car on the throttle stop. Alternatively, you could choose to sell your current motor to one with less power and turn your throttle stop off and still run 8.90s. Sure, I know this sounds ridiculous, and it is, just like the current state of the .90 classes.

We'll never get any sort of consensus as to how the changes to the classes should be implemented because everyone is only looking out for their own best interests (and I'm not saying that I would be any different). In the end, the racers have spoken - run the .90 classes as they are now, run T/S or T/D, or stay home and run the brackets if you don't like it (which is what I've chosen to do, along with racing the TNT Super Street Series).

And as Damien said: