Jeff Teuton

[Randall Klein]

Well, I'm bored at work, and against my better judgement here I go: I too am dismayed at the enhancements CLASS racers have received, and as Alice in Wonderland stated: "it gets curiouser and curiouser"

I supported (to a small extent) Alex's vision of the US Class Nationals, attended and had a great time, heat and all, and poor car performance as well as driver...I observed Alex almost having heat stroke getting things done, and the later to suffer"the slings and arrows" that critics launched

I also supported in a small way Jeff's Racer ***'n and watch his efforts and "out-of-pocket" expenses be ridiculed and second guessed. I believe he at one time offered to "buy out" fom NHRA the Class portion of their eliminators. Tueton had the time, interest and pockets to try to get things done. After watching those two individuals get flamed, who could get any consencus from the rank & file racer?

An interesting proposal is a non-racer, former racer that has been floated; do these individuals have the time, money, backing and tough skin to do it?

The problem as I see it is the cachet of NHRA that cannot be duplicated by a independent racing series. Hate it or not, many, including me, race, not for money, but for some small recognition from our peers around the country if we get one line of ink in Dragster, one more Wally, one line in a points listing, either on the web site or in Digger...or heavens, a small BW picture in our weekly Bible....these things cannot be duplicated by an independent area series, any S/SS regional event or two or three US Class Nationals in my opinion.

My nomination to "run" this would be Pat Joffrion, even if he races with a car, which he has stated he wants to do. He has proven he has what it takes. I think he also knows that to be a success he has to "work with" NHRA to generate national interest.

I think we all know that the Columbus Sportsnationals fell short of what Pat puts on in Belle Rose...I do not know about the west coast version.

What I would do is have Pat work with NHRA to offer 6 to 8 Sportsnationals held at their high level NHRA tracks, pay Pat, allow him to race, pay his travel expenses to manage the event as he knows how with his creative "extra" races with Racer Sponsorship. Create a 3-4 race points schedule with a crystal type Wally as a trophy.

Just some random thoughts on a slow day at work. Safe travel to all and good luck racing his year.


Randall Klein

[bsa633]

S.E.B.,

I no longer race a Class car, but I keep my finger on the pulse of NHRA Class racing through friends who do (and, you know who they are), through reading "NATIONAL Dragster," going to what races I can attend, and reading this, and a few other drag racing BB's.


With NO understanding of what they were up against, I tried my own "exercise-in-futility" by attempting to get a consensus just of this board's contributors, on approaching NHRA for a change in the red-light procedure to a "Worse Red Light" rule, instead of what we have, now.

All I got was one argument after another that "it ain't broke, don't try to fix it" (it is VERY broke, and has been for 34 years...), and people accusing me of trying to somehow gain an advantage for slower cars (no way I know of to do that, nor, would I want to.)

Ultimately, I couldn't even get the drivers of SLOW cars, (who are almost always victimized by the current rule as it exists now,) to support an idea for changing the way the red light system works.

With that kind of mindset endemic, it is near-impossible to put together ~anything~ that some faction, or other, isn't going to perceive as "favoritism" for somebody else.



Bill

Bill why was you so eager to change something about a class that you dont race in ? most of us who does didn't want it! That's just the way it is...and it's a problem for some..it?s the constant urge for changes (in all area's)that need to be stopped...and slowed down!

If we could get guys like Chuck N, D. and such people..with thier enormous knowledge(and fuzzy memories)to run the future of Stock and SS...it would be great...but they are too smart jump on that wagon...even if they still burn for it....you just have to watch these forums too see that no one would like too take that kind of abuse..just takes every little bit of fun out of it!

But clearly ...it's time to start looking for otherplaces to race our classes now..find someone thats interested in the money ....NMCA ..or ...Dave Ley is going in the right direction i think!maybe it's possible too build on that.....but it's hard to have actual racers in the mix...almost impossible!

[FlyingW]

You didn't miss anything in atlanta. We got 2 time runs on thursday, round 1 fri. at 9am round2 sat at 9am. and the rest on sunday. they only care about the pro guys. lets race our own events. Between you WJ and guys like my dad there is enough knowledge to do this. So I spent $1500. for 3 runs that sucks....


Jeremy Waibel
K&N B/SA 69 camaro
2231

[bill dedman]

bsa396 wrote:

"Bill why was you so eager to change something about a class that you dont race in ?"

First off, I don't like people writing notes on this forum who are too unethical to use their real name. I have a mental image of some furtive little coward who is afraid of his own shadow, yet feels brave under the cloak of anonymity that monikers like "bsa396" give him... and it's not a very complimenrtary image.
But, in your case, I'll make an exception because you're so "easy.".

Your question, "Bill why was you so eager to change something about a class that you dont race in ?" seems honest enough, but why would you care what my personal reasons are for wanting this change? Why I want it has nothing to do with the situation as regards the racing that goes on, week-after-week. But, since you asked, I'll tell you.

First off, my perspective may well have a different point of view than yours since I started racing at organized drag evenys in 1955. That is 8 years before the appearance of the Christmas Tree. Flag starts were the norm, and there were no red lights (jump sttarts, yes, but no red lights.)

When the 'tree became popular, I was happy with the situation as regards red lights and how they were handled by the system (first red light is the loser, period.) To tell you the truth, I never gave it a second thought, EVEN WHEN THEY CHANGED THE BREAKOUT SYSTEM FROM "FIRST BREAKOUT LOSES" TO "CAR THAT BREAKS OUT THE MOST LOSES." I wasn't smart enough to see the correlation between this breakout change and the red light situation. I stumbled blindly on, accepting the "first red light" rule for many, many years.

Then, one day a kind soul who shall remain nameless here, took the time to explain to me that the situation involving handicap starts always gave a free ride to the car that leaves last, IF the first car to leave red lighted. I can't tell you how dumb I felt that once it sunk in, to realize that I just had never thoiught about it in that way.

But, there it was... a fact.

He explained to me that this situation existed for a long time because there was not software to "FIX" the situation, so nobody attempted to do anything about it. It went on for so long that it became "institutionalized"... an integral part of "the way things are done."

Now, however, it IS possible to hold off the red light until BOTH drivers have had their equal chance to red light, making for a more level playing field in that one area.

If you have an opinion about capital punishment, then you are in the same position I am. No, you've never killed anybody, or been killed, but you surely have an opinion about what should be done with the people who perform that legal infraction.

Well, I have MY opinion, and this is a public form for discussion of ideas regarding things having to do with class-legal drag racing, so that is my right, as I see it, to give the people who read this board my two cent's worth...

I run a bracket car, which is handicap racing not totally unlike Stock is, most of the time. The same inequity exists in bracket racing; sometimes I'm the faster car, sometimes not. So, I can benefit from the stsus quo )first red light loses), when I leave last, but I am not comfortable with that "free ride," knowing that it's no longer necessary to have this inequity. I want my chance to red light, too... crazy though that may sound, it's only fair.

Then bsa396 wrote:
"most of us who does didn't want it! That's just the way it is...and it's a problem for some.."

I'm not sure exactly what that means ("most of us who DOES???), but I assume he thinks that the majority of the folks on this BB are happy with the system as it is.

I don't know how he can know that, but I won't argue becasuse I haven't interviewed all the people on tthis board; I assume he has...
He may well be right.



Then, he wrote:

"it's the constant urge for changes (in all area's)that need to be stopped...and slowed down!"

I can't argue with that, either. Too much "enhancement" has driven a lot of people from the Stocker ranks, and it never seems to end. Constant change is a really bad thing in this venue, I think, and totally unnecessary.

HOWEVER, in my defense, let me just say that this ONE ISSUE (the first/worse red light rule) is the ONLY issue I have ever suggested a rule change for. My involvement in this racing deal has showed me that there have been way too many changes already, and for that reason, I have never been involved with, or supported or even SUGGESTED any other changes... just this one, out of a sense of fair play.

So, bsa396, the fact that I no longer race a Stock Eliminator car doesn't mean I don't care, or have an opinion about what goes on in Stock.

You don't have to be a woman to be a good gynecologist...

I just saw what I perceived as an injustice of long-standing, still ongoing, with now, an easy FIX, and thought it was definitely overdue to fix it. This change would filter down at all forms of handicap racing (of which I am a participant in one), so it's not like I have made suggestions to a venue that would never affect ME. It will, eventually.

I have an undying love for Stock and S/S eliminator, and always want it to be as good and as fair as it can be. This seemed like one way to change it for the better. My 2-cents...

bsa396, try putting your real name on your posts; you'll feel better, and you'll garner lot more respect from the other people here.





Bill

[bsa633]

Bill...i just took that as an example....its a dead horse..this board may be something to keep you in touch with the sport you obviously love...but when you mention that you havent interviewed everyone on these boards what the actual opinion was/is you expose one thing ....this is just the cyberworld...even while most read on here less than 10% of the actual racers say anything on these boards...it's actual probably as much nonracers,wannaberacers or coming racers that have opinions...so what goes on here dosent have a lot too with the actual opinoin amongs the pointsearners....thats why i think NHRA and such always should ask the racers direct...and they have started too do that

I dont bash anyone..so i dont feel i have too show my name....just have opinions...like most of us...if they dont seem valid just because there isn't name...well thats up to you and others..alot of real racers know who i am and for the same reason as they dont post here,fear of getting bashed for various reasons i will keep it that way

p.s. i do like to read about your memories from the past and such,have a good day!

[bill dedman]

bsa,

You think it's a "dead horse," huh?
You'd better check your crystal ball...

I didn't say that.... LOL!

I can't IMAGINE posting on here "anonymously." I'd be afrraid of what people would think about me... I'm sure there are a lot of folks here who think I'm a complete idiot, and that I stick my nose in where it doesn't belong, but at least they know who they're dealing with.

Each year, I manage to go to a few national events and some points races that are within reasonable driving distance, read digger, and have some close friends who still run Stockers, so I am not TOTALLY out of touch with reality when it comes to current events.. Plus I run my junk in Brackets, but that doesn't count for much...

Like you, I only used the red light rule as an example of how hard it is to get the rank-and-file racers to agree on ANYTHING that affects their racing oprration, because they have been stepped on, kicked around, fined, and deleted from the program to the extent that their UNDERSTANDABLE attitude is, "What next???"

It makes them wary and untrustful of anybody and anything that wants to effect a change in the way things are done.

So, it's going to be a steep, uphill battle for anyone attempting to organize any meaningful challenge to the ststus quo as regards NHRA and the racing program.

At least, that's the way I see it. And I think that's a real shame, because something definitely needs to be done.

Bill

[Bob Orme]

bsa633 wrote: its a dead horse

That horse is far from dead! Don't be too surprised if the red light rule is changed to reflect the worse red light as the loser in the near future.

...not that it matters, but I agree with my buddy Bill on this!

[sg1838]

IMHO, people run NHRA races for one of 4 reasons (or a combination thereof):

1. Money - They have the sponsors, and as such if you win a National event you're going to have one of the biggest paydays possible in sportsman drag racing.

2. Prestige - This includes owning a Wally. As NHRA is the biggest and the oldest, they get the best press coverage, and their trophy has more prestige than others.

3. It's convenient - Depending upon where you live it may offer you the best opportunity to race at some big events, or at the most events. If you live in Lake Havasu City, you have 5 national events within a 90 minute drive, and no other real options.

4. Your friends are there - Sportsman drag racing is a social event. Very few of us are touring professional sportsman racers, and if we're doing this for fun, it's more fun to be at the races that our friends are at.

None of these things are bound to happen IMMEDIATELY. Numbers 3 and 4 have the best chance of happening quickly, but number 1 will take time and a lot of hard work (sponsors have to believe that there will be some return on their investment via the media) and is even related to number 2. Number 2 alone will take a LOT of time develop. Mainstream media is not going to cover these events from the get-go, and unless you have the money like NHRA to publish your own paper to hundreds of thousands of people, it's going to take a while to develop this.

What it all gets down to is that in order for a new sanctioning body to work, it will take somebody who can dedicate ALL of their professional time to develop it, it WILL take MULTIPLE YEARS for something like this to come together where it is anywhere near the magnitude of NHRA or IHRA, and it will take somebody who WILL NOT GIVE UP. An undertaking like this is bound to have it's problems, but the person that does it will need to see past that and carry on (obviously, a thick skin is a must).

Oh, and a deep pocketbook probably wouldn't hurt either, though I'm not sure this is required (well, I guess it would be required because anybody that had a full-time job would most certainly need to quit it to make this become a reality, so you better have a deep pocketbook to at least keep food on the table for a year or two).

I personally don't remember the details behind Alex's endeavor, but honestly I think all us sportsman racers want is to be treated fairly and with dignity. I really believe that if to start this new organization had the exact same rulebook as NHRA, but cared more about it's racers, returned more of the entry money to the racers, and didn't try to gouge it's racers every chance it had that it would be successful.

Some of us would complain no matter what, but my guess is that 90% of our complaints could be addressed in a half dozen issues:

1. Better payout - Simply return more money to the racers rather than pocketing it to turn huge profit. That said, I don't think any of us is against a sanctioning body turning a profit, but again, don't gouge us.

2. Don't nickel and dime us to death - This includes everything from the insurance surcharge, to the oil down fine, to the seatbelt rule (I'm sure I could come up with more, but we'll leave it at that for now).

3. Respect us as working individuals, and make a sportsman racer friendly schedule. Not only should the schedule be made so that people can take less time off of work, but don't make us run at 8 o'clock in the morning and 9 at night every single event. Once in a while is fine to overcome an unforeseen weather issue, but it doesn't have to be every event. Also, don't schedule races over umpteen days, and take advantage of holidays where possible. Why aren't there national events on Memorial Day and July 4th weekends? Because the Pros want to spend that time at home with their families since they're on the road so much, and the NHRA probably needs to give it's employees those holidays off (the employee issue is something that would need to be addressed regardless, but every local track I know has major races on those 2 weekends). And why are the Open and LODRS events at Maple Grove scheduled for Wednesday through Sunday rather than Thursday through Monday so that us working stiffs have to take one less day off of work?

4. Give us better racing facilities - This doesn't mean upgrades to the tracks themselves as much as it means better pits and not having to run when dew is accumulating on the track. Simply eliminating the Pros from the schedule fixes this as we'd gain about 4,000 pit spots on the pavement without them there (plus with less cars there'd be more time to get the race in during daylight hours).

There's probably one or two other things the majority of the people would like to see improved, but if you fixed those 4 items above, I think 90% of the people would be happy (and you can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time).

In closing, I know this CAN be done. It's just a matter of finding the right person to do it. And I know it WILL happen eventually...I just don't know if it will be in my lifetime or not (think about it, it's a GREAT opportunity for somebody who has the dream and desire to make it happen).

That's my $0.03 (it was definitely more than $0.02)...

Jason Oldfield
S/G & S/ST 1838

[gymracer01]

Though I don't race NHRA at this time I have in the "good old days" and have kept up with it over the years. For the last 9 years I have raced with a couple of organizations that race somewhat nationally. The NSCA, (Tony DePillo) and the NMCA. Now I realize these are not as "big" and have the following of NHRA, but they are a lot easier and racer friendly to race with. I know Tony is trying to get the Stocker/Super Stocker thing going. If you have not tried one of his races, I think I would give it a try. You can do it in 2 days and spend less money and not be under the constant pressure like NHRA. If someone is wanting to do something different, I think I would start by talking to Tony. I'm just an old fool trying to do the racing I couldn't when I was a kid.
Jim Netherland
B/NSS 67 GS400