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Old 10-20-2011, 12:00 AM   #21
Jeff Lee
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Default Re: ceramic bearings

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Originally Posted by randy wilson View Post
OK, now that we established this thread, the reason I started it was because a very well known, and successful comp racer told me he spent $ 20,000 on ceramic and never gained a thing. And I know he was trying to help, not lead us astray. What say everyone now. He said don't waste ur time or money.
Then if he said it was so, follow his advice, don't make your own decisions and don't waste your money.
The internet is full of experts.

By the way, did you read what I posted about the little road racer decreasing his lap times by EIGHT seconds with only a full treatment of a ceramic COATING on wheel bearings, transmission components and rear end components? Do you realize how much money it would cost in engine R&D to reduce lap times by 8 second on a road course? That's probably like you gaining a half-second in your drag car.
Have you gone to the Performance Bearing website? You'll find there are many grades of ceramic bearings. When a guy tells me he spent $20K on bearings, it doesn't always mean he spent the money on the best parts. Maybe he did though, I don't know. But I know this for a fact. I've seen guys spend boo-koo bucks on trick parts and still it takes three or four guys to push the car in the staging lanes. All the trick parts in the world won't fix that problem. The real problem must be addressed before looking at any "trick" parts.
Personally, I could care less what John Force or Warren Johnson has to say about a parts merits. I do my own thinking and roll my own dice.
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:05 AM   #22
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Default Re: ceramic bearings

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Originally Posted by Pvt Parts View Post
No Comment.
I should never say never! Yes, I have seen Dana 60's spit out gears over the years. Nothing is infallible. Of course there's always "the rest of the story" and we'll never know if the parts had a million runs on them, were not set up correctly or the clutch was better suited for a dump truck than a race car. But I'll stick to saying I've seen more broken 9" rears than Dana's.

I looked at PerformanceBearing.com and he has 9" bearings listed but not Dana bearings. They will make any bearing you want if not listed. The 40 spline MW axle bearings are $210 a pair and that would be true if a 9" or Dana.

Door car front wheel bearings are shown as $550 approximate (I think it was $542); that's per pair. Pricing is based on application. My AMX spindle bearings cross reference to '67 (and other year) Mustang bearings. So I'm assuming a pair of wheel bearings will be in that price range for my AMX. I haven't called yet. Lamb spindle kits were around $650.

Finally, I did some research on the net. As I said, I don't follow every theory "just because so and so said so" but here's what Evan Smith apparently found:

Numbers published by Evan Smith in National Dragster show that because of the reduced offset between the pinion shaft axis and the axle centerline, the Dana 60 has LOWER drivetrain losses than either the 12-bolt or the 9-inch:

Dana 60: 5%
GM 12-Bolt: 7%
Ford 9-inch: 10%

And yes, there is as much contradictory evidence as supporting evidence on the web regarding frictional losses.
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:12 AM   #23
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Default Re: ceramic bearings

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It's just one more example of how a race car or bike is the some of it's parts.

Jumping on a nice bike after a crappy one is impressive. I think the biggest gain on a bike is the light wheels. If you could fit Lance Armstrong's wheels on your Huffy you would be amazed. Hold a heavy wheel in your hand and spin it, it will pull you around the room. Do the same with a light wheel and feel the difference. Of course you would also notice the better bearings during this experiment.

Speaking of bearings, wouldn't changing over to ball bearings and lighter lube accomplish much of what we're trying to get from the ceramics?

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Back to my kids bike. I used synthetic grease and because the bearings and cages looked like they were pounded out in a sand pit in China, I saw no difference.
I've used Torco rear lube in my Dana and as I've said, it always looks new. I've also used Lubrication Engineering (?) sold by Lamb. It's good, it's very expensive and I saw a MPH increase. Not much but is was definitely there. I did go as high as 126 in D/S.
Something worked!
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Old 10-20-2011, 07:39 AM   #24
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Default Re: ceramic bearings

This load vs losses has alot of holes it really depends on how input load you are using (no load vs 500 lb-ft) at no load a 9 inch would show more lose than say 500 lb-ft the 9" has less then as the whole gear Assm is locked down pinion has god front carrier bearings bad a pinion tail support the spool has the billet caps and the solid spanners. If I were building a new 9" center today I would use the High strengh steel case that Strange has and Ford the NASCAR teams are using these cases about 2 to 3 lbs lighter than the Nodular but a little maybee 8 heavier than alum. But everything will stay in place and not move!


QUOTE=Jeff Lee;288933]I should never say never! Yes, I have seen Dana 60's spit out gears over the years. Nothing is infallible. Of course there's always "the rest of the story" and we'll never know if the parts had a million runs on them, were not set up correctly or the clutch was better suited for a dump truck than a race car. But I'll stick to saying I've seen more broken 9" rears than Dana's.

I looked at PerformanceBearing.com and he has 9" bearings listed but not Dana bearings. They will make any bearing you want if not listed. The 40 spline MW axle bearings are $210 a pair and that would be true if a 9" or Dana.

Door car front wheel bearings are shown as $550 approximate (I think it was $542); that's per pair. Pricing is based on application. My AMX spindle bearings cross reference to '67 (and other year) Mustang bearings. So I'm assuming a pair of wheel bearings will be in that price range for my AMX. I haven't called yet. Lamb spindle kits were around $650.

Finally, I did some research on the net. As I said, I don't follow every theory "just because so and so said so" but here's what Evan Smith apparently found:

Numbers published by Evan Smith in National Dragster show that because of the reduced offset between the pinion shaft axis and the axle centerline, the Dana 60 has LOWER drivetrain losses than either the 12-bolt or the 9-inch:

Dana 60: 5%
GM 12-Bolt: 7%
Ford 9-inch: 10%

And yes, there is as much contradictory evidence as supporting evidence on the web regarding frictional losses.[/QUOTE]
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Old 10-20-2011, 07:43 AM   #25
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Default Re: ceramic bearings

I knew I wanted a 12 bolt over a 9", but am surprised at the Dana 60. Still a lot of un-sprung wt.
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:21 AM   #26
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Default Re: ceramic bearings

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Originally Posted by BlueOval Ralph View Post
This load vs losses has alot of holes it really depends on how input load you are using (no load vs 500 lb-ft) at no load a 9 inch would show more lose than say 500 lb-ft the 9" has less then as the whole gear Assm is locked down pinion has god front carrier bearings bad a pinion tail support the spool has the billet caps and the solid spanners. If I were building a new 9" center today I would use the High strengh steel case that Strange has and Ford the NASCAR teams are using these cases about 2 to 3 lbs lighter than the Nodular but a little maybee 8 heavier than alum. But everything will stay in place and not move!

Can you run an aftermarket Nodular case in Stock? I just got off skype from talking to my dad about putting together a new third member so I'm just wondering?
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:32 PM   #27
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Default Re: ceramic bearings

Yes.
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:44 PM   #28
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Default Re: ceramic bearings

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Originally Posted by Ed Wright View Post
I knew I wanted a 12 bolt over a 9", but am surprised at the Dana 60. Still a lot of un-sprung wt.
Maybe not as much differance as you might think. On my mid-low 10 second, 3200 lb bracket car, I used to have a fairly basic 9" (unbraced OE housing, OE Ford "N" case, 33 spline Strange axles & steel spool). About 11 or 12 years ago, I decided to switch the car from a trans braked 3 speed automatic (C6 Ford), to a Jerico 4 speed. A buddy builds diffs for a living, and suggested that my existing 9" was marginal with the stick, and after comparing the cost to upgrade my 9", (new braced housing, aftermarket case, 35 spline spool & axles), we elected to sell the 9" and go with a Dana 60. The housing is a thick tube 3/4 truck core, with Ford ends, 35 spline Strange spool & axles, billet bearing caps, and aT/A load bolt cover. I used the same brake as the 9" had. Weight difference? The Dana was 6 lbs heavier, BUT, if I had went with a steel aftermarket case, braced the housing, and added the larger axles and spool to the 9", it would have likely added at least those 6 lbs. So pretty much a draw. Now granted, an aluminum case, and fabricated sheetmetal housing would have reduced the 9" a fair bit, but then if I had replaced the Danas heavy truck axle tubes to chrome moly tubes, ...., but this is just a bracket car, so why bother? The only downsides I see are the 9" does have a much better selection of gear ratios available, and if you have the $$$ laying around to have multiple complete "chunks" on hand, obviously gear changes are faster & easier. That said, when my buddy did a ratio change on the Dana in his shop, the old 4.88 Pro gears still looked perfect after 10 seasons of 62-6600 RPM clutch drops, and they were used when I got them! I have no regrets with the Dana 60 swap. By the way, I was able to sell my complete old 9" for enough to pay for the Dana.
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:08 AM   #29
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Default Re: ceramic bearings

At one time I ran 4.88's in my AMX. I bought the R&P used from John Dourlet who had literally hundreds of runs on them behind his A/S '64 Savoy Max Wedge car. The looked perfect when I got them and when I changed to steeper gears in my X, they still looked perfect.
I do have CM axle tubes, MW caps, and back-cut ring gear along, MW lite-weight steel spool with and a T/A cover. I remember when Don Little changed out the 8 3/4 in his 'Cuda to a Dana 60 when he put the Hemi in it, he only picked up about a dozen pounds.
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Old 10-21-2011, 04:07 AM   #30
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Default Re: ceramic bearings

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Yes.
Thanks. That opens up some options for me.
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