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Old 12-06-2011, 04:57 PM   #11
voltdr
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Default Re: Time to Revisit the Super Times?

The $$$$ will almost always win. That is how the Super classes got started. No one has an advantage due to the size of their engines or spare parts list.
I started racing back when Super Gas used to be called Southern California Pro Gas, and you had to qualify (64 cars) to race in first round. I have pictures of my cars from then that look the same as now, No one in the stands. It isn't the throttle stops that keep the fans from watching. It's that there are too many things to do and see. All the circus acts back in the pits.
Back in the day I used to go up to watch the pro cars run time trials. But now I don't. Changing the Super classes to a quicker index will not bring in fans or more racers. It will just drop the cars that can barely run the index now. Look what happened to the car count for TD, by changing TD to a 32-car field they lost entries, Those cars went back to SC or brackets.
No matter what there will never be a consensus of how to change any class or what new class to add.
Dan
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Old 12-06-2011, 06:54 PM   #12
Jason Oldfield
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Default Re: Time to Revisit the Super Times?

  • A person has two choices: spend about as much as a new Honda civic and run SC, or spend six figures and run TD.
I don't think that's quite accurate, as I'm building a new S/C dragster right now, and complete, it's not going to be a $20,000 affair. I'm guessing that rolling, I'm going to have AT LEAST $27,500 in the car. Last time I checked, Civics weren't $45K+ complete.

  • The HP choices are 750 and 1750, nothing in between.
Not true. 750hp if you don't want to run a throttle stop in S/C and are content at 8.90 @ 148 mph, which I doubt you would be. My guess is that it's probably closer to 950hp and 1750hp, but if you want to be in-between, you are welcome to do so and either add more time to your throttle stop, or go bracket racing so that you can go faster.

  • A motor in the 1000-1200 range that just two years ago would have been the cat's meow is little more than a boat anchor.
Hardly in S/C. In T/D maybe. Sorry, that's how it goes when you want to run with the big boys (and though YOU may not consider T/D or T/S the big boys, I certainly do from my perspective).

  • There's no place in the world for a big naturally aspirated motor.
Untrue again. Sonny's just released a 1000 cid naturally aspirated motor. All you need to do is pony up the $100K for it, and you can go mountain motor Pro Stock racing with it. That said, the times are definitely changing, and if you want to go FAST, you had better start looking at nitrous, turbos, and superchargers.

  • The genius who decided that a time of x.90 regardless of how confusing that is, was the right and that can never be revisited.
Of course not. But, this is hardly a major issue. Can it be changed? Sure. Should it have been 11.00, 10.00, and 9.00 to begin with? Probably. Should we change it now after 30+ years of running it the way it is? I think these classes have bigger problems.

  • Classes established years ago when just meeting the index was considered a good accomplishment can't be changed even though people commonly run 1.5secs under that.
Untrue again. 30+ years ago when these classes were created we didn't have a problem meeting the indexes. The difference was that we didn't have electronically controlled throttle stops that allowed the arms race to start in these classes. The indexes can certainly be changed, but the indexes aren't the problem, the electronics are. Get rid of the electronics, add a 7.90 class, and your problem is solved.

  • The only choice is cars that run on the stop for 1/3rd of the pass and drive fans away in droves.
No, you can CHOOSE to run YOUR car any way YOU want. But again, I think it is well proven that running your car for the top end charge has a competitive advantage over other throttle stop configurations. But, feel free to knock yourself out entertaining the fans with full-throttle launches and a down-track throttle stop setup.


Again, eliminate the electronics, and we don't have this problem. And I am in FULL agreement with you, that the current method that people use to race their cars drives the fans away in droves. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for that comment, as I can already see the "the problem is that the tracks don't educate the fans" rebuttals coming. Again, simple solution. Eliminate the electronics, create a 7.90 class, and competitors will start leaving the line at near full throttle again, and SOME of the fans will return (and believe me, I'm not naive enough to think that the .90 classes will EVER generate the fan interest that the nitro categories do).

  • That the arms race is over and the $$ won.
Hardly. But, if that's what you believe, then perhaps you should save your money and stay home, or bracket race at your local track.
  • It's just frigging broken. I don't care how many comics of a dead horse you guys post, it's stupid.
I completely agree with you. It is broken, and it is stupid. But, lowering the indexes is NOT going to FIX the problem, it's just going to exasperate it! Let's say we lower the S/C index to 8.00. Do you think everyone is going to be content running 7.60s flat out? Of course not! Those that can afford it, will immediately go out and start building a better motor so that they can run 7.0 flat out, hold more, and have the higher mph car. Those that can't afford it will slowly improve their cars to do the same.

Over the course of time, your typical S/C dragster will have on average a 1,300 hp naturally aspirated motor in it to be able to run 6.70s or 6.80s flat out. The cars will STILL sit for the first 1/3rd of the run on the throttle stop, we STILL won't have any fans watching, but now instead of $50,000 to field a competitive S/C dragster, it will be $75,000. Oh, and guess what, we'll STILL be racing for $1,000 to win from NHRA.

So, all that said, am I going to lead the charge for the ban on all electronics? Absolutely not. I've relegated myself to the fact that these classes are NOT going to change in MY lifetime, and that if I want to race, I can either accept these classes the way they are and enjoy myself while I compete in them, or find other classes to race. Sitting at home on my computer whining about it doesn't do me any good, as it just raises my blood pressure when I can't convince others to see it the way that I do. My only hope is that at some point in time in the future people start to see the REAL issues with these classes, drop their own personal agendas, and work towards the betterment of the sport. But, that will be something my kids can campaign for, as I'll be in a nursing home or dead by the time any of that happens.

Sincerely yours,

The Old Codger
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Old 12-07-2011, 04:03 PM   #13
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Default Re: Time to Revisit the Super Times?

Last year at the local track, they had a series that they call RAGE. Had 10.0, 9.0 and 8.0 indexes, pro start. .400 tree, and no delay box. no throttle control or automated shifters. I have a automated shifter, and had other things going on so I had to pass on it last year. But this year I am preparing to eliminate the auto shifter so that I can run the Rage series. Don' know if I can run 9.0, but I am going to try. It is a series that they are trying to get started, and I plan to try it, as well as trying to compete in Super Gas. The track is at Indianapolis.
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Old 12-07-2011, 04:48 PM   #14
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Default Re: Time to Revisit the Super Times?

I run a 130 mph S/ST car and ran a 160 mph S/C car and have won Wallys with both. The longer I race, the more I realize the truth of a veteran's advice to me long ago. "It's not about having what they have, it's about making what you have work". Of course speed is the single biggest advantage you can BUY in the Super classes (or any drag racing). But there are lots of advantages you can't buy except with lots of seat time and combination testing.

The current Super classes are not fun to watch, especially on TV. Even slow cars, when they leave together and run all-out side by side "look" faster on TV. I realized this when watcing Unleashed footage from the 12.0 class.

In Division 2, NHRA runs 10.0, 11.0 and 12.0 index classes along with Lucas Oil events. They are lots of fun and have essentially "Nostalgia Super Class" rules - no timers, no delay boxes, pro tree, heads up with a breakout. Those classes have a loyal following but won't grow rapidly unless they NHRA phases out the throttle stop classes. But they do attract new racers who have absolutely no interest in Super class racing and would not be spending their money and weekends at the racetrack otherwise.
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Old 12-08-2011, 02:57 PM   #15
Bill Baer
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Default Re: Time to Revisit the Super Times?

First of all I think there is need for a 7.90 class so to some extent I agree with Chris and I don’t see anything wrong with top dragster as it is.

This would make people (also known as NHRA employees), (not to be confused with the guys working their asses off for minimum wage at the track) think, and make decisions. Not going to happen. Along with others (racers) who will stand in line to complain, any change hardly seems worth it in our complacent society”

Why should the NHRA change anything? They continually fill their quota for super classes at their national events and have even more super class cars at the divisional events?? As long as racers value Wallys more that money nothing will change.


Again, eliminate the electronics, and we don't have this problem. And I am in FULL agreement with you, that the current method that people use to race their cars drives the fans away in droves. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for that comment, as I can already see the "the problem is that the tracks don't educate the fans" rebuttals coming. Again, simple solution. Eliminate the electronics, create a 7.90 class, and competitors will start leaving the line at near full throttle again, and SOME of the fans will return (and believe me, I'm not naive enough to think that the .90 classes will EVER generate the fan interest that the nitro categories do)”.

I made the mistake of suggesting something similar a while back and you would have thought I had sexually assaulted someone’s mother!

“In Division 2, NHRA runs 10.0, 11.0 and 12.0 index classes along with Lucas Oil events. They are lots of fun and have essentially "Nostalgia Super Class" rules - no timers, no delay boxes, pro tree, heads up with a breakout. Those classes have a loyal following but won't grow rapidly unless they NHRA phases out the throttle stop classes. But they do attract new racers who have absolutely no interest in Super class racing and would not be spending their money and weekends at the racetrack otherwise.”

Super class racing before throttle stops, was more fun and [U]less expensive.[/U

]“So, all that said, am I going to lead the charge for the ban on all electronics? Absolutely not. I've relegated myself to the fact that these classes are NOT going to change in MY lifetime, and that if I want to race, I can either accept these classes the way they are and enjoy myself while I compete in them, or find other classes to race.”

I too have learned to accept these classes they way they are.

"My only hope is that at some point in time in the future people start to see the REAL issues with these classes, drop their own personal agendas, and work towards the betterment of the sport. But, that will be something my kids can
campaign for, as I'll be in a nursing home or dead by the time any of that happens
".

I share this hope but I am not optimistic either
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Last edited by Bill Baer; 12-08-2011 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:43 PM   #16
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Default Re: Time to Revisit the Super Times?

My .02...

Why would the NHRA even consider changing ? Plenty of guys in the .90 classes show up at each Div race (especially in D1)....

Changing the index's might be a nice thought, but until TS's are not allowed , then guys will still have big speed in slow classes (the guys who can afford it)..

Spectators ? Does anyone really think , that a Divisional level, spectators will all of a sudden start showing up to watch the .90 classes ? If the hosting track cant bring in spectators to watch Alcohol classes, TD and TS, snowmobiles, jets cars, wheelie cars, etc, will taking off the electronics of some of the classes all of a sudden swamp the spectator gates ?

At a national level, the same applies for spectators...they are not coming today to watch anything but the big boys, except for maybe a very small percentage of spectators...and last time I was at a national event, it was packed in pretty good with people...

Heads up ? Hmmm dont think so...Super Gas was never a heads up race, even way back when, guys were letting off or using a bolt stop of something, so its always been a bracket race, just with an even start at the line...and SC and SST just followed...

Even if we were to speed up the classes, you will still have guys with TS's, 9.0 guys will run in the 10.0 class etc...

Face it folks, small series and local events are where its at today for many of us, with the cost of traveling and entry fees, etc...I still like to run at a few Division races, just cause its more about the friends and getting to meet other racers, etc...

I think we all need to stop worrying about what the NHRA wants/gets and go RACE !!!

Have some fun !!!

OK Jason you're up !!!
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Old 12-08-2011, 04:08 PM   #17
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Default Re: Time to Revisit the Super Times?

Two things I don't understand is why does everyone think the current system is broke when these classes continue to have the most cars in them and second I don't really care if there is soul in the stands, its not a parade and your not waving at the crowd going down the track. I don't care who's watching and hope the guy in the other lane ain't paying too close attention either. I'm a slow car at around 128 and the other guys can go 170 for all I care, I don't think there's an advantage either way because you can't tell me he can judge me any better than I can him. Heck most of the time I feel like I have the advantage I've had more trouble with cars closer to my speed than anyone else.
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Old 12-08-2011, 05:01 PM   #18
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Default Re: Time to Revisit the Super Times?

Sorry Chris but I too dont see the need for change in the end I will adapt to whatever target we get.

Only if NHRA could profit from a change will we ever see one.

Plenty of cars show up to lay down rubber before the pros, and we buy that rubber and pay a majority of the insr and other related expense. We are Dumb Asses in this sense.

Fans come to see the circus, not you or me.

I could care less if anyone is in the stands, I am not John Force niether are you. Thats the wrong reason to race. Like Rock has said, knowing great friends from all over this great country is a very rewarding reason to race. Beating your pears who you know have game, bonus. Having FUN, the only reason to spend this money and work this hard. Others Hunt/Fish or play with balls (whatever) we do this.

Pay Out should be our only mutual platform for revision.

I feel like the Purse and only the purse is worthy of any big Change, not freakin OBAMANATION change either, its already a pathetic payout.

But hey, I cant let Jason Yak this much and not offer my 02!

Merry Christmas to you all, Jeff
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Old 12-08-2011, 07:42 PM   #19
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Default Re: Time to Revisit the Super Times?

Plus NHRA loves us.....we don't bitch.....they check for a helmet and let us race.....like Jeff said...the only thing to talk about is the payout.....

Rock Haas
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Old 12-08-2011, 08:20 PM   #20
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Smile Re: Time to Revisit the Super Times?

Cabin Fever is coming early !

Cabin fever is an idiomatic term for a claustrophobic reaction that takes place when a person or group is isolated and/or shut in a small space, with nothing to do, for an extended period (as in a simple country vacation cottage during a long rain or snow). Symptoms include restlessness, irritability, paranoia, irrational frustration with everyday objects, forgetfulness, laughter, excessive sleeping, distrust of anyone they are with, and an urge to go outside even in the rain, snow or dark
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