Best Pontiac Powered Stockers

[oldskool]

Most here know how quick NHRA hp factors can change. And many times those changes can make certain combos either more or less competitive, for the heads-up runs.

But, as of right now, there are a few Pontiac combos which seem to be more competitive than most others.

I'll make a list, in very roughly the order I think they fall, as to the most competitive. I am by no means the Pontiac expert here. So, for those Pontiac guys who have a different opinion as to the correct order, I'd like to hear all opinions.

(1) Has to be a 1977 180hp 400. Since this engine is factored so much higher if in a Bird, it has to be more competitive in some other body style, such as a Lemans, Catalina, or GP. My preference would be a Cam Am. I think one of those would be so cool.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

(2) The '68 Bird with either the 330hp D-port engine, or the RAII round port engine has always been a very competitive combo.

(3) The 455HO engine has always been competitive, in most all body combos. Scott Underhill recently held the nat record in E/SA, with his 455HO powered T-37.

(4) The '68 & '69 350hp GTO. This is basically the same engine as the '68 & '69 330hp Bird engine, but has a lower hp factor, at 325hp. Don't know of a single '69 GTO Stocker currently in competition. Might be because of the high value of an original or restored real GTO.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

Don't know if the increased wind drag of the A-body, over the Bird body, would offset the hp factor difference or not. Maybe some of you guys can tell us how much difference, just the wind drag would make. I understand that the A-body is heavier. Just referring to the ET difference caused by the aerodynamic difference in the 2 body styles.

Because of the value of the round port heads, especially the SD455 & RAIV heads, I'd say that round port head combos would not be a good choice for a new Pontiac Stocker build. Because of the availability and price of the 6X heads, I'd say the '77 180hp 400, in a non-Bird body, is the best choice.

(5) For those who insist on a '77 Bird body, the 170hp 350 might be more competitive.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

(6) 1974 225hp 400. For those wanting to use a mid '70's Bird body, this may be better than a '77, since the hp factor is 275hp. Tommy Brown uses this engine in a Lemans, & has been the highest Pontiac qualifier on several Q-lists I've seen. I think Don Turk & Don Elgin have also done well with this engine in A-bodies. And we've already talked about Bob Mulry's '74 Bird, which may be the quickest Pontiac ever, against it's index. Don't know for sure.

(7) The '73 250hp 455, in a Bird, at only a 306hp factor, is the best low CR D-port 455 combo. I think Michael Brand & Adam Davis made this combo popular, a few years back, with their '73 Formulas.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...79&MAKE=Pontia

[8) Being a GTO fan, I like Todd Kuhn's D-port 455 '70 GTO. My first 455 was out of one of these cars. With just a change to a Pontiac 041 cam, it ran 12.40's in our '68 Bird. And that was with only 3.55 gears & a stock 13" converter. At only 340hp, I figure this engine has more potential than most any other Pontiac engine. It has high compression & big cubes. In fact, the '70 455 is the ONLY high compression 455. The #64 heads are not real easy to find. But, they'll be cheaper than any round ports.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

Then there is the 301. Billy Nees probably knows more about the non-turbo 301 than anybody else. And I suppose Rick Unterseh is the 301T guy. But, this is not a good combo for others to consider, IMO, because the needed 301T blocks & cranks are getting so hard to find.

Of course there are many other combos that can be used, which can easily be made to run under the index. And, since, except for same class heads-up runs, Stock is basically a bracket race, as long as you can run your index or quicker, you can win a race.

Mike Morgan won his class at Indy, a few years back, with a '76 400 Bird. Ryan Warter has done well with a '75 Bird. Ryan Schloe did OK with a '71 455 D-port Bird. As mentioned, Adam Strang ran high 10's with the '68 350HO engine, in his '68 bird.

If there have been any competitive 2-barrel Pontiacs, I'm not aware of 'em. Anybody know of any ?

[Todd Hoven]

My old combo from 10 years ago. 1972 LeMans/GTO 455 250hp rated at 315. I ran 10.83 with this combo in testing at the end of 2009. Still a great combo.

Originally Posted by oldskool

Most here know how quick NHRA hp factors can change. And many times those changes can make certain combos either more or less competitive, for the heads-up runs.

But, as of right now, there are a few Pontiac combos which seem to be more competitive than most others.

I'll make a list, in very roughly the order I think they fall, as to the most competitive. I am by no means the Pontiac expert here. So, for those Pontiac guys who have a different opinion as to the correct order, I'd like to hear all opinions.

(1) Has to be a 1977 180hp 400. Since this engine is factored so much higher if in a Bird, it has to be more competitive in some other body style, such as a Lemans, Catalina, or GP. My preference would be a Cam Am. I think one of those would be so cool.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

(2) The '68 Bird with either the 330hp D-port engine, or the RAII round port engine has always been a very competitive combo.

(3) The 455HO engine has always been competitive, in most all body combos. Scott Underhill recently held the nat record in E/SA, with his 455HO powered T-37.

(4) The '68 & '69 350hp GTO. This is basically the same engine as the '68 & '69 330hp Bird engine, but has a lower hp factor, at 325hp. Don't know of a single '69 GTO Stocker currently in competition. Might be because of the high value of an original or restored real GTO.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

Don't know if the increased wind drag of the A-body, over the Bird body, would offset the hp factor difference or not. Maybe some of you guys can tell us how much difference, just the wind drag would make. I understand that the A-body is heavier. Just referring to the ET difference caused by the aerodynamic difference in the 2 body styles.

Because of the value of the round port heads, especially the SD455 & RAIV heads, I'd say that round port head combos would not be a good choice for a new Pontiac Stocker build. Because of the availability and price of the 6X heads, I'd say the '77 180hp 400, in a non-Bird body, is the best choice.

(5) For those who insist on a '77 Bird body, the 170hp 350 might be more competitive.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

(6) 1974 225hp 400. For those wanting to use a mid '70's Bird body, this may be better than a '77, since the hp factor is 275hp. Tommy Brown uses this engine in a Lemans, & has been the highest Pontiac qualifier on several Q-lists I've seen. I think Don Turk & Don Elgin have also done well with this engine in A-bodies. And we've already talked about Bob Mulry's '74 Bird, which may be the quickest Pontiac ever, against it's index. Don't know for sure.

(7) The '73 250hp 455, in a Bird, at only a 305hp factor, is the best low CR D-port 455 combo. I think Michael Brand & Adam Davis made this combo popular, a few years back, with their '73 Formulas.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...79&MAKE=Pontia

[8) Being a GTO fan, I like Todd Kuhn's D-port 455 '70 GTO. My first 455 was out of one of these cars. With just a change to a Pontiac 041 cam, it ran 12.40's in our '68 Bird. And that was with only 3.55 gears & a stock 13" converter. At only 340hp, I figure this engine has more potential than most any other Pontiac engine. It has high compression & big cubes. In fact, the '70 455 is the ONLY high compression 455. The #64 heads are not real easy to find. But, they'll be cheaper than any round ports.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

Then there is the 301. Billy Nees probably knows more about the non-turbo 301 than anybody else. And I suppose Rick Unterseh is the 301T guy. But, this is not a good combo for others to consider, IMO, because the needed 301T blocks & cranks are getting so hard to find.

Of course there are many other combos that can be used, which can easily be made to run under the index. And, since, except for same class heads-up runs, Stock is basically a bracket race, as long as you can run your index or quicker, you can win a race.

Mike Morgan won his class at Indy, a few years back, with a '76 400 Bird. Ryan Warter has done well with a '75 Bird. Ryan Schloe did OK with a '71 455 D-port Bird. As mentioned, Adam Strang ran high 10's with the '68 350HO engine, in his '68 bird.

If there have been any competitive 2-barrel Pontiacs, I'm not aware of 'em. Anybody know of any ?

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Todd Hoven

My old combo from 10 years ago. 1972 LeMans/GTO 455 250hp rated at 315. I ran 10.83 with this combo in testing at the end of 2009. Still a great combo.

Yeah, Ryan Schloe even ran a '71 Bird with a D-port 455. The guys on the PY site posted how bad those #66 heads were. Ryan did OK with it. Ran safely under the index. He was .929 under, at the 2005 Pomona finals.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2005#indextop

So, there are quite a few Pontiac combos that can run well under, if built correctly & the car is set up right.

Speakin of your '72 D-port combo, Gary Wood said they did just as good with it as with the 455HO, in their Tons-a-Fun wagons.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0212hpp-pontiac-history/

Of the '71 & '72 cars running now, I don't always know which ones have D-ports & which ones have the 455HO. Since weight can be added or removed to run maybe 3 different classes, it's sometimes hard to tell, by the class they're running, exactly which engine they have.

I think Scott Burton was the last guy to run RAIV heads, in Stock. So, since he & John Schloe no longer run 'em, I suppose there is nobody currently running them, in Stock. But, there are several cars still running the 455HO engines. Brad Burton is the first name that comes to mind. We've mentioned how much he's won with that car, including 2 nat championships. Don Turk now has a 455HO powered T-37, as does former record holder Scott Underhill. I think Larry Maxwell's old car has the 455HO. A lady from Canada now drives it.

[Todd Hoven]

The 71 and 72 Combo is different. 71 combo can be run in an F Body and A Body and is rated at 325. The 72 is A Body only and rated at 315. It uses a 7M5 head that has a bigger intake runner.

Originally Posted by oldskool

Yeah, Ryan Schloe even ran a '71 Bird with a D-port 455. The guys on the PY site posted how bad those #66 heads were. Ryan did OK with it. Ran safely under the index. He was .929 under, at the 2005 Pomona finals.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2005#indextop

So, there are quite a few Pontiac combos that can run well under, if built correctly & the car is set up right.

Speakin of your '72 D-port combo, Gary Wood said they did just as good with it as with the 455HO, in their Tons-a-Fun wagons.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0212hpp-pontiac-history/

Of the '71 & '72 cars running now, I don't always know which ones have D-ports & which ones have the 455HO. Since weight can be added or removed to run maybe 3 different classes, it's sometimes hard to tell, by the class they're running, exactly which engine they have.

I think Scott Burton was the last guy to run RAIV heads, in Stock. So, since he & John Schloe no longer run 'em, I suppose there is nobody currently running them, in Stock. But, there are several cars still running the 455HO engines. Brad Burton is the first name that comes to mind. We've mentioned how much he's won with that car, including 2 nat championships. Don Turk now has a 455HO powered T-37, as does former record holder Scott Underhill. I think Larry Maxwell's old car has the 455HO. A lady from Canada now drives it.

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Todd Hoven

The 71 and 72 Combo is different. 71 combo can be run in an F Body and A Body and is rated at 325. The 72 is A Body only and rated at 315. It uses a 7M5 head that has a bigger intake runner.

Yeah, that's why the PY guys badmouthed those #66 heads.

And, because of the better heads & lower hp factor, that '72 A-body combo would obviously be more competitive.

But, as Ryan Schloe proved, the '71, with #66 heads can run well below the index. Wouldn't be as good, for heads-up runs. But, should be just as good for the dial-your-own rounds.

If built correctly, there are lots of Pontiac combinations that will run under their index. But, most guys wanna run as far under as possible. So, if you begin with a combo that has a favorable hp factor, that means that you don't have to get as serious with the build, just to run the index.

BUT, for those who wanna build a Pontiac that will run a sec under, they have to be more selective in their engine choice. Have to weigh the engine potential against the NHRA hp factor, for that engine, in the body you wanna use.

As mentioned, some body styles have already been hit real hard. The '77 Birds, using the 180hp 400 engine is a good example. The '74 GTO is another.

So, for anyone planning a Pontiac Stocker build, all these things must be considered. For just building something that will run under, there are LOTS of Pontiac combos that will work. But, for running a sec under, there are a few combos that offer more potential.

Stocker guys have been playing with this system for a long time now. That's why you see so many vehicles on the track that were not considered High Performance, at all, in factory form. BUT, because of NHRA hp factoring, an ugly, plain Jane car, that no Musclecar guys ever liked, may be a killer combo, on the track, especially if they can keep from getting a big hp hit.

Pickup trucks immediately come to mind. Then there are all the wagons, & other real heavy cars. And, there are the 4 cyl compacts. We remember a guy named Dave Botkin. He had a little pinto named "Tumbleweed" that ran strong. He won a div 4 title with it.

[oldskool]

Here's a short Pontiac slide show, with lots of Pontiac history, including quite a few race car pics.

Anybody who wants to watch will want to turn your audio volume off, because it is some sort of elevator music, or something that does not fit the video in the least.

It goes past the last Pontiac V8 engine, & depicts the very sad end of the Pontiac Motor Division.

[oldskool]

Found some more old Pontiac Stocker pics.

I've looked at so many pics lately, I can't remember all I've used in this thread. Maybe I should have kept a list. But I didn't. So, I'll rely on the mechanism on this site that tells you if you've already used & pic, & in what thread.

This 1st batch are '69 Birds.

Well, I'd already posted 3 of 'em. So, I'll try some other models.

Found 3 '68 pics I haven't posted yet.

[oldskool]

I'll try some more.

[oldskool]

Some Goats.

[oldskool]

I'm gonna present my opinions here. Then I wanna get opinions from you Pontiac guys.

(1) The first thing I want your opinions on, is what would be the cheapest Pontiac combo, that could be easily made to run safely under the index, & even survive a couple of small index reductions.

My opinon:

I think a '77 180hp 400 would be the cheapest, when used in any legal body EXCEPT a Bird. The NHRA hp factor is 260.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

There are still some good blocks out there for around $600 or less. Most any good 400 block will work, EXCEPT the infamous "557" blocks.

The required 6x-8 heads are probably the cheapest & most plentiful 400 Pontiac heads there are. Usable cores are still going for around $200 a pair, or less.

Adam Strang has proven that you can get by with the cheap Speed Pro forged pistons. That savings will pay for the price of a core block.

That engine can use an 800cfm Q-jet.

This is no secret or surprise to anybody, since there have been so many Pontiac Stockers run this engine.

(2) Next question is: What is the best Pontiac combo, IF there is no budget limit at all. Another way to say it is: ...if cost does not matter.

I'll list several which I think MIGHT be best. The oldest one is a Ram Air II engine in a '68 Bird. 340hp factor. The cam can have nearly .500 lift.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

The Class Racer Info site just quit working, for me. Anybody else ?

The 455HO engine has always been competitive. I think it still is. I assume that Brad Burton is the most famous 455HO guy, in recent years, with national & div championships.

Well, I'll stop this 'til the CRI site starts working again. Then I'll edit & continue.

OK, it's back up. The factor for a '72 455HO, in a Bird, is 325hp. IMO, that's a competitive combo.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

The '73-'74 D-port 455 has a 306 hp factor, in Birds. Michael Brand & Adam Davis proved that is a competitive combo.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

Then, of course, for those who can afford the high dollar factory parts, the '73-'74 SD455, in a Bird, is still a competitive combo, at 335hp.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

Even at 356hp, the '69 Firebird should still be competitive, with the round port RAIV engine. Besides the round port heads, it has high compression, & a cam with .531 lift. Like the SD455, the RAIV parts are now rare & expensive.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...2&MAKE=Pontiac

Another combo I like is the '70 GTO, with the 360hp D-port 455. It has a 340hp factor. But, it's high compression. Only one of these cars running in recent years, that I know of. Don't know what an all-out build would do.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

The '74 400 is still a possibility, since you can run it in a Bird, without a penalty. But, in other bodies, the '77 400 has a 15hp advantage. In recent years, the '77 has been run in the Lemans, the Grand Prix, & at least 1 Catalina.

At a 333hp factor, the '68 Bird, with the 330hp 400, is still competitive.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

I've mentioned that he same engine in a '68-'69 GTO, has only a 325hp factor. I ask but never got a response. So, is the GTO body enuff to offset that 8hp difference ? Or, would a GTO be slightly more competitive, with the same engine?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

I personally like the extra torque of the 455 engines. So, when the hp factors are pretty close, I favor the 455 over the 400.

So, with price not a concern, what Pontiac combo do you guys think would be most competitive, in an all-out, no expense spared build ?

And, while we're at it, I think I've read where both Bill Rink & Mike Morgan have said that Parsons & Myers can build the quickest Pontiac engine. What say ya'll ?