Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Nathan Stinson

I grasp exactly what you are saying, but read what you typed. Up until 2008...... It is 2011 the game has changed. Now the good thing about it is if/when NHRA sees it your way they will take the magic pencil and make new classes for the cars that some of you have come to loathe, and at that point all you guys will have to find something else to whine about. I grasp everything you said about the way stock was, but I also grasp that it has changed right or wrong.

No, you don't get it at all. You never will. It's not Stock Eliminator any more. They just call it Stock Eliminator.

[BadBanana]

OK guys, play nice. What you need to do is work TOGETHER to fix the problem so that both have the "opportunity" to be competitive - not a guarantee if you can't cut it, but an opportunity. Unless you stand together it will just go on as it is, or get worse.

[Lew Silverman]

No one is saying that there shouldn't be change. Change is inevitable.

What some of us are saying is "make the changes FAIR!" If we've let a group of vehicles compete with an unfair advantage, as some of us believe, then the situation needs to be corrected. Lowering the index's doesn't do it, it only moves the mis-factored car's higher on the list. Fix the problem created with the unrealistic horsepower factors first!

Lew

[BadBanana]

Dale:
Farmer was tough and sometimes controversial - but he kept it together.
He was "the Man" !!!
I DO have some "Farmer" stories

[BadBanana]

"What some of us are saying is "make the changes FAIR!" If we've let a group of vehicles compete with an unfair advantage, as some of us believe, then the situation needs to be corrected. Lowering the index's doesn't do it, it only moves the mis-factored car's higher on the list. Fix the problem created with the unrealistic horsepower factors first!

Lew"

Read the details, Lew. I didn't say just lower the indexs (but they do need drastic lowering); you have to get the cars factored correctly, first - which is what I believe you are saying.

Personally, it would be fine with me if:
1) the cars were fairly factored so old and new had the opportunity to be competitive; and
2) the indexs were fairly determined FROM CLASS TO CLASS;
and then the indexs themselves were made almost unattainable, or maybe not an e.t. but a class delta, OR there was no breakout- whichever !!!!
Of course, the two items I mentioned would need to be constantly and fairly reviewed and modified for that to work - but the fun would begin. You don't have to agree with that, I don't expect many to, but that's just what I would like to see to SAVE the category.
How long would the fans hang around, or would there be TV coverage, if in the Olympics hurdles competition, someone would complain that they paid their entry fee and were unable to compete because those other guys were too fast and that "wasn't fair", because they were younger, had longer legs, etc.
Let's see......... maybe we would come up with a time that if they ran faster they would be disqualified and then EVERYONE would have a chance to become an OLYMPIC track star !!! How exciting !!!! I HATE BREAKOUT RACING - make it fair and then, Let's RACE !!!
S/G and S/C is always available. :-(
I don't want to get into a p***ing match here with anyone so, I have said what I think, now I hope all of you who are currently running S and S/S can get together, decide what you collectively want (fat chance, I know), and pressure NHRA to maker it fair and exciting and something that the FANS will like to watch again (Chevy against Ford against Chrysler, etc. - brand loyalty).
I'm done here - I just get upset !!!

[BadBanana]

Just one more thought. I DO like the new cars racing. I think it might bring back the fan base some and maybe that's what NHRA is looking at.
I'm just suggesting what I suggest so that those of you who have all your excess cash invested in an older car can still compete and have fun. I'm afraid if you guys don't amicably work it out, NHRA will continue to discourage the older cars until they give up - don't give them the opportunity. You might have to give up something, fight an uphill battle, actually work on your car to make it FASTER, but it will be a great TRIP !!

Also, I would like it if they took away all those electronic driving aids and put the driving back totally in the drivers hands, not buttons or switches. Line-locs and nothing else - maybe even take them away. We did without them for many years !!!
I remember back in '82 or '83 I as trying to get my '69 425hp 427 Camaro into the 9s in SS/EA. I was runnning very close (10.02, 10.03) which was very respectable back then. At Atlanta (Commerce GA) Dragway, at a meet the week before the Gators, I had made a couple of 10.03 runs when my Moroso cable drive tach broke. I had to run the first round without a tach and was forced to "feel it" in the seat of my pants. Result - first 9 second run (9.98) !!!
NOW, I'm done, maybe

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Lew Silverman

No one is saying that there shouldn't be change. Change is inevitable.

What some of us are saying is "make the changes FAIR!" If we've let a group of vehicles compete with an unfair advantage, as some of us believe, then the situation needs to be corrected. Lowering the index's doesn't do it, it only moves the mis-factored car's higher on the list. Fix the problem created with the unrealistic horsepower factors first!

Lew

Actually, I am saying there shouldn't be change. The class itself should not be fundamentally changed. Stock Eliminator was never intended to have purpose built race cars as part of the class. It's really simple. You can't mix production street driven combinations with purpose built race cars. There was a time when NHRA knew this. Purpose built factory race cars were put in Super Stock or Factory Experimental classes, where they belonged.

Face the facts here. You cannot properly factor purpose built race cars to make them work in Stock Eliminator.

First off, the last thing we need is 6.0 pound per HP cars on 9" tires running 8 second elapsed times in Stock Eliminator. Even at 7.0 pounds per HP, if they were to do that, you'll soon have 3700 pound cars on 9" slicks running 8.90 ET's. Why? Because the index for the 7.0 class is going to get set really low, because they want to go really fast, and NHRA apparently has no qualms at all about giving them what they want.

Further, what they'll really want, and they've already asked for, is 6.0-6.5 pound classes. That's Super Stock A and B territory. Think about that for a minute. It took a full ten years, and a new class a half pound per HP lighter, for Stock Eliminator to go from Bobby DeArmond's legendary 9.99 in A/SA to a few cars in AA/SA running in the 9.50 zone. And two tenths of that five tenth ET drop came from taking 200 pounds out of the cars. Now we have A/SA cars running 9.50, and they're sandbagging.

Second, so long as the factory can "make" any car or engine they want with a pen and a piece of paper, you can't keep them factored. The AHFS barely works as it is, often only working at Indy for class. Read the rule: OEM may apply for inclusion of ANY SPECIAL PRODUCTION RUNS into the Official NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide. Special runs must include a minimum of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need not be showroom available. Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precedence. Every year, they can simply make minor changes, and get a new factor.

Factory race cars need their own class, just like they had for years. Stock Eliminator is not that class. Sure, new cars should be in Stock Eliminator. New production showroom available cars. Stock Eliminator needs to return to the original concept.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

OEM may apply for inclusion of ANY SPECIAL PRODUCTION RUNS into the Official NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide. Special runs must include a minimum of 50 units of an already accepted body style, [COLOR=Red]need not be showroom available.[COLOR=Black] Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precedence.

IMHO, that is the worst thing that NHRA ever did to Stock Eliminator!

[Alan Roehrich]

Originally Posted by Billy Nees

IMHO, that is the worst thing that NHRA ever did to Stock Eliminator!

Agreed. It fundamentally changed the entire character and premise of the class. That is exactly what I mean when I say Stock Eliminator is not Stock Eliminator any more. That rule completely changed the class. Stock Eliminator, as we knew it, ceased to exist the day that rule was written.

[JHeath]

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich

Actually, I am saying there shouldn't be change. The class itself should not be fundamentally changed. Stock Eliminator was never intended to have purpose built race cars as part of the class. It's really simple. You can't mix production street driven combinations with purpose built race cars. There was a time when NHRA knew this. Purpose built factory race cars were put in Super Stock or Factory Experimental classes, where they belonged.

Face the facts here. You cannot properly factor purpose built race cars to make them work in Stock Eliminator.

First off, the last thing we need is 6.0 pound per HP cars on 9" tires running 8 second elapsed times in Stock Eliminator. Even at 7.0 pounds per HP, if they were to do that, you'll soon have 3700 pound cars on 9" slicks running 8.90 ET's. Why? Because the index for the 7.0 class is going to get set really low, because they want to go really fast, and NHRA apparently has no qualms at all about giving them what they want.

Further, what they'll really want, and they've already asked for, is 6.0-6.5 pound classes. That's Super Stock A and B territory. Think about that for a minute. It took a full ten years, and a new class a half pound per HP lighter, for Stock Eliminator to go from Bobby DeArmond's legendary 9.99 in A/SA to a few cars in AA/SA running in the 9.50 zone. And two tenths of that five tenth ET drop came from taking 200 pounds out of the cars. Now we have A/SA cars running 9.50, and they're sandbagging.

Second, so long as the factory can "make" any car or engine they want with a pen and a piece of paper, you can't keep them factored. The AHFS barely works as it is, often only working at Indy for class. Read the rule: OEM may apply for inclusion of ANY SPECIAL PRODUCTION RUNS into the Official NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide. Special runs must include a minimum of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need not be showroom available. Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precedence. Every year, they can simply make minor changes, and get a new factor.

Factory race cars need their own class, just like they had for years. Stock Eliminator is not that class. Sure, new cars should be in Stock Eliminator. New production showroom available cars. Stock Eliminator needs to return to the original concept.

Alan, doesn't your wife have anything better for you to do? I've seen this exact post a dozen times within the past two weeks! We get it! You hate these new cars and want Stock Eliminator to be "69 Camaro Eliminator" for the rest of our lives. Copying in that paragraph from the rulebook over and over and over again on here isn't going to get the HP factors fixed, or the cars put in their own class, or even banished from Stock Eliminator like you seem to want so badly. Give it a rest already!