worst red light debate, again!

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

ED,

Faster cars have been enjoying a "hand out" since 1963 (the FREE RIDE if their competitor "bulbs.")

If that isn't a "hand out," I don't know what is....
Where is your objection to THAT "hand out"?????

That is a question I have never asked you before, and one I'd like to have an answer to. This sort of thing is repetitive because you consistently fail to answer such questions because you HAVE no answer. This current red light rule is what they would say in a court of law, "indefensible." Any defense you could muster would show it to be an unfair rule, brought about as the result of a technical failure (no trechnology that could deal with it at the time,)
but, that is no longer the case.

So, how about it; since you haven't answered the question (or, any other) before, tell me, why don't you object to the "free ride" the second-to-leave car receives if the first car bulbs???
It won't be repititious because you've never answered it, so you can't use that cop-out as a reason not to answer it.

So, what's your reason????

If you just can't find an answer in your overtaxed brain, tell me this:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Ed saID:
"I don't need handouts."


Ed, explain to ME (not Jim,) where's the "handout" for a rule that treats EVERYBODY THE SAME, instead of favoring one segment over the other, like it is, now????

You have NEVER told me what there is about a "worse red light rule" that qualifies it for being labeled a "handout."

It's the same for every racer. EVERYBODY gets a chance to red light.

Where's the "handout"??????????

I really would like to know what there is about a rule that's the same for everybody, that compels you to call it a "handout."

Tell me, Jim Wahl, Mark and Mr. Kelley what you think about this, using the word "handout" in a sentence describing how it would affect you, for instance.

Thanks.

You must be a real peach to live with.If a bull$hit subject like this has you in such a tizzie,I can just imagine how you would handle a real crisis.You are a scary individual.

[bill dedman]

Bob Mulry said:
"The policy that you are attempting to correct is the policy known as "First or Worst" not first or worse."

Give me an example of a "Worst red light."

Well, for example...

Car A bulbs with a -345-sec infraction. That's a .345-=sec. red light BAD

Car B bulbs with a -346-sec infraction, That's a .346-sec red light WORSE

Car C.... Oh, there is no car C. and no "Worst" red light.

There are infractions worse than a red light, such as if Car B hits the guardrail, but that's not a red light.

No such thing as a "Worst red light."

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Jim Wahl

I think what Bill is saying is that the system might be "working" now but it could work just a little bit better for "all", not just the last car to leave. The "worse red light" rule would hurt no one. It would even the playing field for 99.9 % of the non heads up races today! The technology exists to do this today, it did not in the past. It should be changed. It would make the rules of NHRA and IHRA if nothing else, consistent. Aren't we all looking for consistency? Jim

Just my opinion. I am entitled to it since I have been class racing for 45 years now. Right Ed? Please send me your phone number so I can call you and get tips on how to improve my starting line abilities!

.

Jim Wahl said,

"I think what Bill is saying is that the system might be "working" now..."


It's "working," to the extent that it's not obvious enough that it's "unfair," that enough people who realize its favoritism, currently cause disturbances on the starting lines, but the more people come to realize that it's an easy fix, and one that is long overdue, and MORE unfair to a certain segment of the field, the more likely that is to happen.

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Ed Fernandez

You must be a real peach to live with.If a bull$hit subject like this has you in such a tizzie,I can just imagine how you would handle a real crisis.You are a scary individual.

KILL THE MESSENGER!!!

All I did was ask you to answer two simple questions, and you turn into a babbling pseudo-psychoanalyst.

Just answer the questions, Ed.

If you don't, you're only proving that everything I said was true.

Oh; that was the other ED.

Well, I've never seen both of you in the same room at the same time.

Can't tell the players without a program.

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Mike Carr

This will help (maybe). Copy this, and send it in to anyone who will listen to you. (BTW, I won't be sending it, for three reasons).



Dear NHRA (and/or IHRA), and officials whom it may concern.

I, __________________, would like to bring to your attention the unfairness of the current red-light system in handicapped racing. THis includes bracket racing, Jr Dragsters, Top Dragster, Top Sportsman, Competition, Super Stock, and Stock Eliminators in NHRA Full Throttle and Lucas Oil drag racing events (if sent to IHRA, subsititute applicable classes). Many years ago, the break-out rule, in dial-in racing, was changed to disqualify the worst offender. I believe the redlight rule should be ammended to be the same. The worse of the two redlights should be DQ'd, not the first car doing it. Example:

Car A, dialed in at 10.00, has a -.002 redlight
Car B, dialed in at 9.50, has a -.005 redlight

In the current format, car A is out, because he fouled first. And car B, despite a worse foul, is the winner.

In all fairness, car A in my example should win, because his light was actually better (closer to .000), provided they did not cross the centerline, fail fuel check or scales, etc.

I would like you to take this under consideration in the future, to make it fair(er) for ALL cars, not just the second car to leave in a handicapped race.

Thank you for your time.

_________________ Name
_________________ Class/Car number
_________________ NHRA Membership number (or IHRA, if you submit this to them




You may feel free to add your own comments in your letter sent to the powers that be. So this way, you can stop posting here, get a posse together, and try to get this unfair rule changed. You're welcome.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++
Mike, did you not read this post I wrote on thee subject of petitioning NHRA at this time, on the double red light system?

Originally Posted by bill dedman
Jeff, this a discussion board, right? I think we can agree on that. It is not just a discussion board; it is a discussion board dedicated to the idea that non-racers have brains, too, and CAN have good ideas, and need a place to put those ideas out for public scrutiny. Ken created this board for just such a purpose. Ask him...

I have been able to, through my many posts here that explain the reasons why I think this "worse" red light idea could be an improvement over what we have, to use this board as Ken intended it.. Why anyone would object to using this board for the betterment of our sport is beyond me.

Some say it's boring, and a waste of time. That's their opinion, and they are surely within their rights to voice it here, but I would ask, "Why would anyone continue to read something that is boring, and a waste of time?" Nobody puts a gun to anyone's head and says, "READ THIS, OR I'LL SHOOT!" When I find a TV show on my television that bores me, I switch channels. There is an abundance of other subjects that are available on Class Racer that will inform, entertain, and educate... all one needs to do is click on them; nobody has to read this thread if it bores them.

Having said that, and I don't think there's anything in that paragraph that you would disagree with, doesn't it make you wonder why there are SO MANY posts here???? Somebody likes it... Somebody thinks it's worth discussing. A lot of "somebodies," apparently.

As far as NHRA/IHRA goes, I don't run a Class car right now, and the "quality" of people that I would be talking to at the "HRA's", don't have the perspective beyond "the company line" to entertain "outside the box" ideas from non-NHRA/IHRA racers, especially (given their financial state of affairs,) ideas that are going to cost them money (no matter, how little.)

No, I am sure that the first question he'd ask would be, "What is your membership number and what is your Permanent Number," as if that information would have ANY bearing on the quality of my suggestion(s).

Only by hearing it from a variety of sources, will this idea ever gain traction, and this forum is probably the best place for dispensing the kind of logic that is part and parcel of a worse red light rule.

Popular opinion will get this rule passed, eventually, if, indeed, it ever gets passed.

Talking to an NHRA/IHRA "official," who's relegated to answering the phones, isn't going to get it done. He's likely, already afraid for his job, and suggesting to his superiors a new rule that not only, won't make the national organization one thin dime, but will COST money to implement, isn't going to "enhance" his employment status at all... especially, at a time like this

It's not the right time for that methodology, I'm afraid. Maybe it will never be.

In the meantime, demonizing someone who is trying to help enact a rule that would make things more fair for everyone, and would hurt NO ONE probably isn't the best course of action...

My 2-cents.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++

I wrote that awhile back, in answer to suggestions that I do just what you suggested.

I explained why I do not think the timing is right for such an action. In fact, I am convinced that strategically, it would do far more harm than good, right now.

But, at another time, I think what you have suggested would be a great idea, and you did, in my opinion, an excellent job of summarizing the question at hand, in a way that anybody could understand it. I was impressed!

Thanks much for your hard work and insight!

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Ed Fernandez

You must be a real peach to live with.If a bull$hit subject like this has you in such a tizzie,I can just imagine how you would handle a real crisis.You are a scary individual.

If you think that a subject concerning a rule that gives an advantage to some racers, but not others, is "bull$****," You're dumber that I think you are....

If you want to prove me wrong, just answer the two questions I asked Ed Wright, (in post 651) since I can no longer tell you two apart.

Waiting....

[Ed Fernandez]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

If you think that a subject concerning a rule that gives an advantage to some racers, but not others, is "bull$****," You're dumber that I think you are....

If you want to prove me wrong, just answer the two questions I asked Ed Wright, (in post 651) since I can no longer tell you two apart.

Waiting....

My answer is:



Uhh Bill,you've been obcessing over this since April 22nd.(Round two).Who's dumb?????????
Actually I'm having fun and you're nuts.Tomorrow I'll be serious and you'll still be nuts.Sad sad life.

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by Ed Fernandez

My answer is:



Uhh Bill,you've been obcessing over this since April 22nd.(Round two).Who's dumb?????????
Actually I'm having fun and you're nuts.Tomorrow I'll be serious and you'll still be nuts.Sad sad life.

Who's dumb?

A guy who spells OBSESSING with a C...



No, Ed, what's sad is that you have been right there with me, every step of the way, and still can't answer even the simplest, most basic questions about this discussion... because you know that IF YOU DO, you won't have an argument any more. And everyone knows it.

Now, THAT'S SAD.

[Jeff Lee]

Originally Posted by Ed Fernandez

You must be a real peach to live with.If a bull$hit subject like this has you in such a tizzie,I can just imagine how you would handle a real crisis.You are a scary individual.

Like... whose turn is it to take out the trash? That kind of dilemma? Or it's not fair that I should clean the toilets because I took out the trash three times more than I should have last month? Or because I'm busy on the keyboards and it's not fair that I should stop to let the dog out? I agree, I can't imagine successfully handling such crisis.

Bill, speaking of demonizing, is it something like this:

"You're dumber that I think you are...."

or this:

"As far as NHRA/IHRA goes, I don't run a Class car right now, and the "quality" of people that I would be talking to at the "HRA's", don't have the perspective beyond "the company line" to entertain "outside the box" ideas from non-NHRA/IHRA racers, especially (given their financial state of affairs,) ideas that are going to cost them money (no matter, how little.)"

Well at least you FINALLY got somebody to write that darn letter for you. All you have to do is fill in the blanks. Are you waiting for free postage now?

[Jim Wahl]

Since none of the two Ed's or Jeff can communicate a real reason that they oppose Bill's "worse red light" rule and yet have such a passionate negativity for it, it leads me to believe, in my professional opinion, that they could be suffering from what it known as metathesiophobia, commonly refered to "the fear of change". They (particularly the two Ed's) exhibit the common symptoms of:

1. A feeling of uncontrollable anxiety when you think about or are exposed to changes.

2. The feeling that you must do everything possible to avoid changes.

3. The inability to function normally because of your anxiety.

4. The knowledge that your fears are unreasonable or exaggerated but feeling powerless to control them.

I have a friend who has a great website dedicated to just this phobia and I will insert it just as soon as I can find it so that you guys can begin to get some help confronting this problem. Some good reading and I hope it will help you to confront your inner demons.

Here you go:
http://www.phobia-fear-release.com/m...siophobia.html

Bill, I would suggest that you no longer continue the banter with these guys as it has become very obvious to most people who have followed this thread that they do not have anything to useful contribute to the conversation and are just feeding off of your justifiable frustration. I have received many positive emails and would enjoy communicating with you one on one to plan a strategy on this "worse red light" situation. Feel good in the fact that there are many out there who agree with you, if for no other reason but to bring consistency to the rules, and would post just that here but do not feel like being beaten up for voicing their opinions. Me, I have thick skin and I love to try to improve the system! Jim

jimwahl@embarqmail.com