Pontiacs

[oldskool]

"...Pontiac V8 a corporate motor?..."

Don't think I've ever read the current GT rules. If I have I don't remember all of 'em.

So, does it say specifically that only "corporate" motors can be used in GT ?

If so, in order to be considered "corporate", did the engine have to be available in every GM division, which I assume would include Chevy, Pontiac, Olds, Buick, & Cadillac ???


If so, I suppose that would eliminate quite a few GM engines. Probably would ban all BBC engines, from non-Chevy car bodies. ???

OR, do the GT rules allow any GM engine in any GM body ??? I don't know. I'm just askin.

As for questionable combos, I reckin it's pretty much left up to the tech guys at any particular race. Most are obviously not near as picky as they once were.

I can think of a popular car that has no front turn signal lamps. I have been scolded online for even mentioning that.

Another popular Bird, running as a '73, IIRC, actually has '71 Firebird fenders on it. But it has been running for years like that, & has passed tech.

I think several of the early '70's Birds have got by with just changing grills, when claiming different year models. I personally don't think those small changes should make any difference. BUT, I can remember back when Wesley would bounce a car for VERY minor infractions. Obviously, the rules are a lot more lax, nowadays, at least for most tech guys.

Some guys want the rules strictly enforced. Others want 'em lax, so more cars can run in the Stock & SS classes, to help keep 'em alive.

Opinions differ.

The Bird below has a Formy hood, with TA fenders, in the 1st pic. Then in the 2nd pic, it has T/A hood & fenders, but no wheel flairs. It passed tech, in both conditions. So, those items apparently don't matter nowadays. I don't know, Just a casual observation. IMO, those items would not affect performance in a noticeable way. But, cars have been bounced for less, in days gone by.

[john corcoran jr]

What most people think of as corporate motors is not the NHRA definition. The NHRA view is that any motor allowed as long as it is from the same manufacturer. So you could use a Gen 3 Hemi motor in your Plymouth or any GM motor in any allowable GM car body.

The fender vents on a T/A help relieve the warm air buildup under the hood. Stand next to mine on a hot night and you will feel the heat pour out while the car idles. With the car in motion, I am pretty sure it will help move the air out from under the hood. That is why Pontiac called them air extractors. All the items Pontiac hung on the T/A had a purpose. The shaker took in cold outside air, the wheel flares smoothed the air around the wheel openings, and the rear spoiler put over 100 lbs of downforce at 55 mph.

Casey now drives Lynn's black 3rd gen T/A.

Stacy sold his 3rd gen bird to build his Grand Am. Tibor Kadar bought it and won a Div.7 with the car. Tibor later sold the car to me so he could build the 77 Firebird stocker that Tommy Pettigrew now drives. I ended up going through and updating the car including replacing the 400 6x motor with a SD455 from Don Kennedy. I heard that Tommy replaced his Pontiac 350 with a Chevy 350.

[oldskool]

" What most people think of as corporate motors is not the NHRA definition. The NHRA view is that any motor allowed as long as it is from the same manufacturer. So you could use...any GM motor in any allowable GM car body..."

This is the way I've always thought it was.

"...The fender vents on a T/A help relieve the warm air buildup under the hood. Stand next to mine on a hot night and you will feel the heat pour out while the car idles. With the car in motion, I am pretty sure it will help move the air out from under the hood. That is why Pontiac called them air extractors. All the items Pontiac hung on the T/A had a purpose..."

Yeah, that all makes sense. So, if that is correct, the T/A fenders should make at least a slight improvement in ET, over the non vented fenders. So, it makes sense to run 'em if NHRA will allow it. I suppose that's what you'd call a "no-brainer". Run the quickest combo you can, that will pass tech.

"...I heard that Tommy replaced his Pontiac 350 with a Chevy 350..."

Yeah, I saw that.

"... I ended up going through and updating the car including replacing the 400 6x motor with a SD455 from Don Kennedy..."

So, have you raced it yet ? Still racing it ? Results? What division are(or were) you in. Sorry for all the questions ! But I am just not familiar with your name.

Thanks for sharing all this info.

Since starting the Pontiac Stock & SS threads, I've learned the name of a lot of Pontiac racers I'd never heard of. So, I'd like to know your history of racing Pontiac powered cars.

Note: If you'd prefer NOT to put all your info on this thread, please feel free to converse with me by Email: donhurst455@gmail.com

Thanks !

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by john corcoran jr

What most people think of as corporate motors is not the NHRA definition. The NHRA view is that any motor allowed as long as it is from the same manufacturer. So you could use a Gen 3 Hemi motor in your Plymouth or any GM motor in any allowable GM car body.

The fender vents on a T/A help relieve the warm air buildup under the hood. Stand next to mine on a hot night and you will feel the heat pour out while the car idles. With the car in motion, I am pretty sure it will help move the air out from under the hood. That is why Pontiac called them air extractors. All the items Pontiac hung on the T/A had a purpose. The shaker took in cold outside air, the wheel flares smoothed the air around the wheel openings, and the rear spoiler put over 100 lbs of downforce at 55 mph.

Casey now drives Lynn's black 3rd gen T/A.

Stacy sold his 3rd gen bird to build his Grand Am. Tibor Kadar bought it and won a Div.7 with the car. Tibor later sold the car to me so he could build the 77 Firebird stocker that Tommy Pettigrew now drives. I ended up going through and updating the car including replacing the 400 6x motor with a SD455 from Don Kennedy. I heard that Tommy replaced his Pontiac 350 with a Chevy 350.

Would you happen to know if they help reduce aerodynamic drag on the car at speed?

Stan

[oldskool]

No matter what a class racer's brand preference is, they usually look for the best combo, in order to be competitive.

So, when lookin at possible competitive Pontiac combo's, I look at those that have been successful in the past, as well as those that are currently active & competitive.

Note: A sudden big hp hit from NHRA can render a combo less, or even non-competitive, instantly. So, the competitive possibilities of these combos can change QUICKLY.

All the round port engines have been competitive at some point. But, due to the scarcity of the heads & their high price, I won't list any combo that requires iron round port heads. Billy & others have also proven that the 301 can be competitive, with & without a turbo. But, those parts are also getting hard to find. So, I won't include any 301 combo. The '74 GTO was a good Stock combo for many years. But the Stock hp factor is too high now, for it's low compression 350 engine.

(1) Right now, my #1 choice would be a '77 base 400 engine, in any body, other than a Bird. Why ? The 6x-8 heads are some of the most common & cheapest Pontiac heads. Birds with this engine have taken too many hits.There have been LOTS of competitive cars running this combo.

(2) The '74 400. It is said by some long time Pontiac racers to be the most competitive Pontiac Stocker engine. It has been a proven Stocker engine, for many years.

(3) These next 2 engines are a toss-up, to me. I'll start with the 455, just because it's bigger. It's the '73-'74 D-port 455. Current hp factor is only 306, in Stock Birds only. 310hp in SS. The large chamber 4X heads are not in high demand, therefore should be reasonably priced. The long stroke should provide plenty of torque, requiring less rpm, to run a decent time. There are '73 Birds that have done well with this combo, in recent years.

The '72 D-port 455 is also 306hp, in a Stock Bird & 310hp in SS.

(4) In Stock, the '68 & '69 GTO 350hp 400 has an NHRA hp factor of 325. That's better than basically the same engine in a '68 & '69 Bird. For SS, the '69 has only a 306hp factor. That should make it a good choice, for anybody wanting to run a '69 GTO in SS. Art Peterson has the only '69 SS GTO I'm aware of.

(5) '68 Bird 400 330hp. This has been a good competitive combo for a long time. Currently rated at 333hp for Stock & 315hp for SS. Not as good as the '69 GTO. But, I suppose the Bird has less wind drag.

(5) '67 Bird 400 325hp. Randi Lyn Shipp & Bryan Phillips have proven this combo, for many years now.

(6) '77 350. This is especially good in a SS Bird, @ 246hp. In Stock, it's 254hp in a Bird & 250hp in everything else.

(7) For SS GT only, the 428 has proven itself to be very competitive, especially with the legal alum heads. So, for Pontiac powered SS GT racers, it might be hard to beat.

Some may rate these in a different order, for different reasons. There have probably been competitive cars using all these combos.

Another engine I've mentioned is the '68 350HO. Adam Strang ran 10.80's with one, in his Bird. But, I'm guessing that the #18 heads may not be real easy to find.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by oldskool

(1) Right now, my #1 choice would be a '77 base 400 engine, in any body, other than a Bird. Why ? The 6x-8 heads are some of the most common & cheapest Pontiac heads. Birds with this engine have taken too many hits.There have been LOTS of competitive cars running this combo.

For the not-forseeable-future, this is the best hard core Pontiac that's both competitive and affordable. That is until NHRA allows Pontiac Racers into the 21ST Century and gives them an approved replacement aluminum head.
Another thing that you need to remember when you're talking about most of these combos is the price of a nice body. Have you priced any nice 70/early 80 F,X or A/G bodys lately?

[oldskool]

"...the price of a nice body. Have you priced any nice...bodys lately?..."

Yeah, that will definitely be a factor in deciding what combo to use.

That's the problem with running a '69 GTO. Any clean '64-'72 GTO body is going to be really high.

As for running a '77 combo. I don't know what non-Bird body would be the the cheapest, & easiest to find. I'm guessing maybe a GP. Most everything except GP's & Birds have probably long since been crushed, because of a lack of interest.

Just for kicks, I'm gonna Google & see what I can find that looks decent enuff to possibly build a Stocker with. Will edit & add to this post as I find 'em. Might be interesting.

If I were serious about building a Pontiac Stocker, I'd contact several of the active Pontiac racers, such as Bob Michael. I figure most long time class racers are always looking for decent potential Stocker bodies. So, some of these guys will probably either have something or know where something is that will work.

Checking for '77 GP's 1st. Not gonna list any that $10k cash or less won't buy.

https://www.autozin.com/for-sale/pon...#carid=2731211

https://www.autozin.com/for-sale/pon...carid=14425317

https://www.autozin.com/for-sale/pon...#carid=2841908

https://classics.autotrader.com/clas...prix/101513093

https://www.autozin.com/for-sale/pon...carid=14444230

https://classics.autotrader.com/clas...prix/101427485

Wow ! To my surprise, there seem to be more cheap '77 Birds than GP's. Don't know if any of these are decent enuff to use to build a Stocker, or not. But, there are some for less than $5k. A couple of years back, I bought an '80 Bird, with a '77-'78 style nose, for around $3500 shipped. So, hey, a '77 Bird with a 350 Pontiac engine might be one of the cheapest '77's to build. Lotta rust bucket Birds out there, tho.

https://www.autozin.com/1977-pontiac...289-atzlisting

https://www.autozin.com/for-sale/pon...#carid=1801688

https://www.autozin.com/1977-pontiac...855-atzlisting

For those who can spend $10k for a body, this '78 might work. I think maybe you can change grills & claim a '77 model.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/13386311715...=&toolid=10050

How 'bout a '77 Bonny ?

https://www.autozin.com/for-sale/pon...carid=14381941

Don Turk had his GA for sale, for quite a while, for $10,500. That was a bargain. I'da bought it myself, if I'da had the money.

[oldskool]

I'd say if you want a SS Pontiac, GT is the way to go. You can find a good buy on a used GM SS roller, then put your Pontiac engine in it.

https://www.racingjunk.com/Pro-Stock...89&from=search

Or, if you can live with a '77 350, you can probably get by with a good Stocker roller. The '77 350 hp factor is only 250, in GT. I think Larry Maxwell is running 9" slicks on his '74 350 powered '68 Bird.

And there are lots of Stockers running low 10's on 9" slicks & legal Stock suspension. Should be lots of 3rd gen Stock & SS rollers for sale out there, especially when the season is over. Should be able to find a Stocker roller for a reasonable price.

If you wanna stick with an older Pontiac body, for GT, you can use an X-body that didn't come with a Pontiac motor. I assume that will include anything form '71 thru at least '79, & would also include a Phoenix.

And, since the engine & body don't have to match, you can use a '79-'81 Bird body. I think more '79 Birds were sold than any other year. So, it makes sense that they will be more plentiful & cheaper. Have also noticed that the '80 & '81 Birds are usually pretty cheap. I personally don't like the '79-'81 nose. But hey, looks ain't everything. And, I know the nose can be replaced with a '77-'78 nose. I'm assuming the tail can also be replaced with the earlier tail, so that one could run it as a '77-'78.

Anyhow, for GT, there are LOTS of body options.

[Mark Yacavone]

Real Pontiac V8 ( no corporate nonsense) in the S/G final at Indy !!

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

Real Pontiac V8 ( no corporate nonsense) in the S/G final at Indy !!

And so it was !

Thanks for that info ! I most likely would have never even looked at the S/G final.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...er=30#indextop

Just a word about the winner of that race. My wife & I use to run against him, bracket racing at I-20 Dragway, in Tyler TX. They called his dad "Fast Eddie". So we called him "Little Eddie". IIRC, he was just a teenager, back then. I think he was driving a Mopar -- maybe a GTX. ? He was pretty good, even then. We couldn't beat him every time. Anyhow, he went on to make a big name for himself, in drag racing. Hey, that's just a little drag racing trivia for ya'll, from days gone by.

By the way, for those who don't know, the '68 Bird that Julie Biermann drove at Indy belongs to Tim. He also ran a real nice '68 GTO, a few years back.