Factory experimental

[Len Imbrogno]

To Alan and Bruce's point, creating a specific class for the new Mustang, as well as a race version of the new Challenger and Camaro, was exactly the concept that was looked at prior to my departure from NHRA. As a matter of fact, there were several meetings with representatives from all three manufacturers and they were all on board with the concept. The class was to be called "American Muscle" and allow the three American manufacturers a chance to showcase their latest performance cars. This type of a concept would most likely breath a renewed interest by the auto manufacturers in promoting products they actually sell and as Dick Butler stated, would give Stk and SS "a chance to retake part of the show".
Not sure what happened to this idea, but perhaps NHRA could take another look at it going forward.

[keith ohanesian]

Its called you left Len.

[Billy Nees]

OBTW, all of the hype about Garlits racing a Challenger in Stock? It ain't happening unless they hurry up and get the Challenger in the guide. No guide, no race.

[art leong]

I wonder if there was an internet forum back in the mid 1950's. What we would be looking at? All the flathead guys screaming about those evil overhead valve motors?
In the 70's we had 2 years a go fast racing. In division 1 there was the Hershlow and Morlock Pontiac firebird super duty 455. (You could not get parts for the motor without a vin number). It was factored at some rediculously low number. And could run a week under. They were not in our class but, this was go fast racing. They had a stock eliminator race every week at Englishtown. And the only time we stood a shot at winning was when they were not there.
We belly-ached about them a bit (everybody did). But we worked our butts off and learned a lot of invaluable info. Now REMEMBER I said worked our butts off not spent our butts off.
Back then nhra had a 10 year rule on stockers. Think about how many stockers there would be now if they had kept that rule in force. Then I could see a true top stock (rwd cars) and a jr stock (fwd cars)
The Mustangs Camaros and Firebirds etc. would be running each other. and the SLOW (turd) cars could run each other. That would have cut the number of classes (to make a lot of you very happy} Kept factory involvement ( 10 year rule).
I'm not advocating a change like this but this is what could have been. All this complaining could lead to something you really don't want.
It seems like easiest way to beat someone is on the keyboard, not on the race track. When I ran the turbo cars, people lambasted them (and still do) I posted exactly how to make them run for very little expense. No black-magic, hocus pocus, hide it in the trailer stuff. Still many of you said I shouldn't be allowed to race. Even though my car was more "stock" than any out there. It was fine to come rolling into the track with a $100,000 "A" stocker in a tractor trailer rig. But "Arties" $2000 car should be banned.
I think these "new" cars will dominate the class for a while. Didn't the LT 1's do the same?

[Bruce Noland]

Art,
You are right they will dominate for awhile. How long is awhile? None of us know. 10 or 12 years later and the Lt1's are still tough. Why shouldn't a car be properly factored from the beginning? And you can bet your bottom dollar that the racers from the 50s would have been all over the Internet if it had been available to them. Human nature hasn't changed.

[Bruce Noland]

Alan, Billy and Len,
All very good points.

[art leong]

Originally Posted by Bruce Noland

Art,
You are right they will dominate for awhile. How long is awhile? None of us know. 10 or 12 years later and the Lt1's are still tough. Why shouldn't a car be properly factored from the beginning? And you can bet your bottom dollar that the racers from the 50s would have been all over the Internet if it had been available to them. Human nature hasn't changed.

Bruce what I was refering to was that when the overhead valve cars came in to play the sport changed, multivalve heads and compressed air are here to stay. They aren't a passing fancy. Do you realize how many street driven (for real) 9 second cars are out there
A couple of days ago I bought a shortblock from a guy with a Neon, he was from Florida, I am from Georgia, So we met in the middle. The car he drove to bring the motor to me is his daily driver, it had a cage and a parachute, as well as a NO/2 bottle. I thought this was one of those showy type cars. WRONG . Well he runs mid 9's at 145 mph That isn't going to happen easily with the 2 valve N/A cars.
Just like the overhead valve motors took over from the flatheads. It seems like we all want progress but only if it suits our needs.

[Jeff Lee]

Originally Posted by Bruce Noland

Guys,
These CJ's don't represent any great change in the way nhra is going to run their "show." This deal looks to be a cash'n carry deal. Sure nhra will publicize the CJ's but there will be little exposure for the rest of the category. Top Stock and Junior Stock are prime examples of what can happen to a class when the fast cars take over. It dies!

This CJ deal is different than finding out a killer car has slipped through the cracks of the ahfs. Currently, a killer car in any class may be 20 horsepower soft and prehaps nobody saw it coming until a racer looked at the sheets and said wow this looks good. More power to him/her. And usually there are only a couple of these killer cars sprinkled around the country and they are raced by blue collar sportsman racers. No, this CJ deal is about a car that can roll off the trailer and run below a very tough national record on it's first attempt at a serious test'n tune. This car is not 20 or even 30 horsepower soft. It is 80 to 100 horsepower soft. It is so soft that Ford won't produce any horsepower numbers in writing. They are marketing an ultra high tech, Injected/Supercharged car and don't want to produce a dyno sheet for nhra to see. Nobody should be able to walk into nhra and say well the car may be a little bit soft but the ahfs will correct the numbers. That would be a fraudulent proposition and should never be allowed. And these cars will run all over the country; with more of them coming out this fall. Like most of the racers on this site, I can't wait to see them run in person. Some of these CJ's have a great team owner who wants to run these cars all over the country and I'm darn happy to have him, but he needs to run his cars in the right classes. Running these Rockets against 40 year old cars just doesn't work and I think the public will figure that out as well. Ford and nhra will come away from this current deal with a lot of bad press. Obviously nhra and Ford can do pretty much what they want but both should be careful about what they are asking for because they may just get it.

From what we have learned so far, this car has been able to slip bye nhra's vetting process or nhra is going plug this car into regular classes without seriously studying it's performance. It's not a difficult excersise to put these cars into classes where they can be evaluated and yet still enjoy all the pleasures of class racing in Stock Eliminator.

I don't know how many times I've seen "work harder on your combo" spouted on this forum. I guess if a statement like that applies to someone that is a few tenths off his competition it should apply to everybody that is a second off this new Mustang. Maybe that will be NHRA's argument?

Regardless of who needs to work harder or what the HP rating of this Mustang or even the Challenger should be, the fact is none of these cars are regular production vehicles available to the public for street duty. That has been the premise for NHRA Stock Eliminator competition since day one. If Dodge & Ford want to offer these special vehicles for street use with EPA & NTSA approval, fine, let 'em race in Stock. But since the manufacturers have by-passed all the stringent requirements for street certification, then these vehicles shoould be mandated strictly to Super Stock. No different than the Hemi Darts & Barracudas, SS/AMX and other factory race cars of the past. Some vehicles such as ZL-1 Camaro's were street approved so they should be allowed in Stock.

And I guess the argument should be that all factory SS packages of the past should now be allowed in Stock Eliminator. Looks like that is where the bar is now. Wonder if NHRA ever thought of that?

[Bruce Noland]

Art,
"we all want progress when it suits our needs"?? No, I think most of us want equitable progress. We are not trying to be selfish. Check the blue print sheets on the 425/500 motors; if you haven't already.

[Billy Nees]

Wow! I agree with Jeff Lee! It MUST be cold in Hell today!