4 speeds for 55-56 chevrolet superstockers - Page 3

Fred Holdorf · 12-22-2007, 02:59 PM

Bill, A '63 Ford 352 is a two barrel carb engine. Are you sure that is what they are running?

Ken Haase · 12-22-2007, 03:01 PM

Good post Bill. Back in the day I drove a couple of Turdo-glides. A '59 El Camino 280/348 was one and as I recall, you couldn't even percieve when the gear change occurred. Kinda like stepping in wet cement when you mashed the gas too. And as Dwight mentioned, those trannys had the infamous 'GR' on the shift quadrant. When you pulled it into 'GR' the pitch of the engine changed a little, but I never felt any deceleration. I always thought they were single speed transmissions! Maybe it was just that particular car. Back then, no self-respecting hot rodder drove a slushbox anyway. Well, maybe the early Torque-flites and Hydro's.

bill dedman · 12-22-2007, 03:19 PM

Ken,
You don't "feel" the gear changes in a Turbogglide, but they are there.

That Wikipedia site explains it a lot better than I can, but the explanation that I have heard that makes the most sense is that the first, second and third (1:1) geared elements in the converter are ALL pulling as you leave from a dead stop. But, the one that's really MOVING the vehicle is the one with the "longest lever," the 1st gear element with its 2.5:1 gearng. When the vehicle speed reaches the point where it can no longer contribute (because of the rpm) the 2nd-gear (1.5:1) element, which has been pulling all along, continues to accelerate the vehicle more rapidly than the high gear (1:1) element can, but at some point, it, too, runs out of rpm and it "overruns" on its sprag, and is just along for the ride, and the 1:1 high gear element continues to pull, but with no gear reduction... you're in high gear, now.

The rpms stay pretty constant until the 2nd gear element starts to overrun; then, you're in "high gear" and as the vehicle accelerates, rpms will increase in a linear manner, since it's a 1:1 ratio, now.

Clear as mud??? Like I said, the Wikipedia explanation is much better than mine...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turboglide

Tony Janes · 12-22-2007, 06:43 PM

I think that the 63 Ford in Div 1 is a K or L stick 390 ci 300/280 hp stocker

Dick Butler · 12-23-2007, 10:00 AM

The picture is blurring...... Reality cars produced versus expensive "sorta stockers" Wouldnt it be just easier to fast forward to where the plan is going instead of mind irritating one at a time what seem to be irrational changes? Maybe there is no "plan" to recreate S and SS as generic "sorta stockers" but it seems to be going that way.
Paper cars, sorta factored running with real cars tightly factored by the old days methods and now the new method which choses to factor based on body type, trans used, al***ude, ?
I think some people would rather see a spec motor,spec trans,spec chassis with a 10 year guarntee of no changes than this costly continual gradual move that direction. Just think thats SS/AH already. Its getting bigger all the time. Couldnt others be allowed this courtesy who dont chose to run Hemi or cant afford them today?

Better Disclaim this one.

Chuck Norton · 12-23-2007, 10:47 AM

Dick,

That suggestion seems to be a mirror of the NASCAR logic that led to the mandated '"Car of Tomorrow." (I just wish they had offed the Ricer Wing. Something about that irritates me.) But then, would NHRA feel comfortable ins***uting a policy that was initially concocted by NASCAR?

c

Dick Butler · 12-23-2007, 11:58 AM

Chuck, Maybe its the fact most racers know how it was intended when S and SS started. Most are just too stuborn to admit the 100s of motors and 100s of combination is out of NHRAs control. Not handled by current enough processes to factor, update parts and index all at one time. every new year brings a new group of headache motors not one.
My main feeling has always been the pain every year one at a time for each and every racer watching it happen is FAR greater than a one time declaration that would put us to the final product. Generic classes. Modified eliminator with spec carbs and lb per cubic inch not fake hp ratings which take forever to correct.
AH is there but VERY EXPENSIVE. How about the llittle guys. Do we want to keep gouging them in the pocket every year in the name of "fairness" 4 speed s in 55, 3 speed automatics, Aluminum heads for one brand this year. ANy size injectors.
Step back and watch what works...AH. No mystery factoring on another motor. They are all the same. As much as I know all brands would make a better show I recognize under current methods by the organization it can never work withing the NHRA or IHRA methods. It is too complex for their methods to handle today.

Chuck Norton · 12-23-2007, 01:43 PM

Dick,

Can't say that I disagree. (How'd you like the way the Forum software edited the word "ins***uting?" I didn't type it that way.) Anyway, our form of racing presents an interesting conundrum to rules makers and enforcers. It's the variety of classes and cars that have made it great for everyone for years and ultimately caused the explosion of participation over the last fifteen years. At the same time, the proliferation of participation and the inclination of racers to seek every advantage in an extremely compe***ive arena has created a need for highly-trained and perceptive enforcers. Those guys are rare and are rarer still if they are willing to work for minimal compensation under horrendous conditions. Compare the costs incurred by NASCAR to maintain their technical services division to that of NHRA. I don't have the numbers but I suspect that there is a significant disparity between the two.

Is it out of control? I'd say "complicated and evolving" might be more accurate. Is it unworkable? Perhaps it's not worth the effort but, in my opinion, to replace it with a "spec system" in the sense that I understand that term would probably drive out the little guys within a couple of years. Money would trump ingenuity. A good example of what happens to Super Stockers over time when you homogenize the rules and requirements and then let money drive a system of heads-up racing is called Pro Stock. Homogenization of the rules is a slippery slope. Once you start, the end is predictable. What makes Stock and Super Stock great is the variety of people and combinations. The fact that Billy Nees can whip up on Bobby DeArmond or vice-versa is why I get up and go to the shop every day. I really look forward to seeing the combinations that come rolling out of Mark Yacavone's and Neil Smedley's shops.

Does the system need some refinement? In my opinion, there are some rough spots. Is it worth trashing what we have just to clean up the rough spots? Once again, in my opinion, as long as the participation is at current levels and new blood keeps flowing in to fill the holes left by those of us who are gathering at the "Rainbow Bridge," it's worth working to save. A few soft horsepower ratings don't ruin the day for me. A few "interesting" combinations are just that, interesting. A few imaginative additions to the parts list don't spell the end of relevance to what I've been doing for longer than the guy in the other lane has been out of diapers. I remember the same things going on in 1964 and we survived it. Heads up racing is fun but it is not the way to keep the entry lists full.

Happy Holidays,

c

Bill Belden · 12-23-2007, 05:08 PM

You are right Tony, it's a 390

76 RACER · 12-23-2007, 05:28 PM

Mr. Norton
I am glad to read that I am not the only person that thought the wing on the car of tomorrow is something seen on ricer cars all the time here in the Southwest. Could it be those wings are functional on the ricemobiles and they were ahead of their time with that design? Have a great Holiday and hope to see you this spring.

12-22-2007, 02:59 PM	#21
Fred Holdorf Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Minden, Nv Posts: 44 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 4 speeds for 55-56 chevrolet superstockers Bill, A '63 Ford 352 is a two barrel carb engine. Are you sure that is what they are running?

12-22-2007, 03:01 PM	#22
Ken Haase Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 233 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: 4 speeds for 55-56 chevrolet superstockers Good post Bill. Back in the day I drove a couple of Turdo-glides. A '59 El Camino 280/348 was one and as I recall, you couldn't even percieve when the gear change occurred. Kinda like stepping in wet cement when you mashed the gas too. And as Dwight mentioned, those trannys had the infamous 'GR' on the shift quadrant. When you pulled it into 'GR' the pitch of the engine changed a little, but I never felt any deceleration. I always thought they were single speed transmissions! Maybe it was just that particular car. Back then, no self-respecting hot rodder drove a slushbox anyway. Well, maybe the early Torque-flites and Hydro's.

12-22-2007, 03:19 PM	#23
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Re: 4 speeds for 55-56 chevrolet superstockers Ken, You don't "feel" the gear changes in a Turbogglide, but they are there. That Wikipedia site explains it a lot better than I can, but the explanation that I have heard that makes the most sense is that the first, second and third (1:1) geared elements in the converter are ALL pulling as you leave from a dead stop. But, the one that's really MOVING the vehicle is the one with the "longest lever," the 1st gear element with its 2.5:1 gearng. When the vehicle speed reaches the point where it can no longer contribute (because of the rpm) the 2nd-gear (1.5:1) element, which has been pulling all along, continues to accelerate the vehicle more rapidly than the high gear (1:1) element can, but at some point, it, too, runs out of rpm and it "overruns" on its sprag, and is just along for the ride, and the 1:1 high gear element continues to pull, but with no gear reduction... you're in high gear, now. The rpms stay pretty constant until the 2nd gear element starts to overrun; then, you're in "high gear" and as the vehicle accelerates, rpms will increase in a linear manner, since it's a 1:1 ratio, now. Clear as mud??? Like I said, the Wikipedia explanation is much better than mine... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turboglide __________________ Bill Last edited by bill dedman; 12-22-2007 at 03:45 PM.

12-22-2007, 06:43 PM	#24
Tony Janes Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Whittier, Ca Posts: 830 Likes: 86 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: 4 speeds for 55-56 chevrolet superstockers I think that the 63 Ford in Div 1 is a K or L stick 390 ci 300/280 hp stocker __________________ Tony Janes 7941 STK, SS

12-23-2007, 10:00 AM	#25
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: 4 speeds for 55-56 chevrolet superstockers The picture is blurring...... Reality cars produced versus expensive "sorta stockers" Wouldnt it be just easier to fast forward to where the plan is going instead of mind irritating one at a time what seem to be irrational changes? Maybe there is no "plan" to recreate S and SS as generic "sorta stockers" but it seems to be going that way. Paper cars, sorta factored running with real cars tightly factored by the old days methods and now the new method which choses to factor based on body type, trans used, al***ude, ? I think some people would rather see a spec motor,spec trans,spec chassis with a 10 year guarntee of no changes than this costly continual gradual move that direction. Just think thats SS/AH already. Its getting bigger all the time. Couldnt others be allowed this courtesy who dont chose to run Hemi or cant afford them today? Better Disclaim this one.

12-23-2007, 10:47 AM	#26
Chuck Norton Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Covina, CA Posts: 473 Likes: 104 Liked 81 Times in 18 Posts	Re: 4 speeds for 55-56 chevrolet superstockers Dick, That suggestion seems to be a mirror of the NASCAR logic that led to the mandated '"Car of Tomorrow." (I just wish they had offed the Ricer Wing. Something about that irritates me.) But then, would NHRA feel comfortable ins***uting a policy that was initially concocted by NASCAR? c

12-23-2007, 11:58 AM	#27
Dick Butler VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Indiana Posts: 1,196 Likes: 5 Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts	Re: 4 speeds for 55-56 chevrolet superstockers Chuck, Maybe its the fact most racers know how it was intended when S and SS started. Most are just too stuborn to admit the 100s of motors and 100s of combination is out of NHRAs control. Not handled by current enough processes to factor, update parts and index all at one time. every new year brings a new group of headache motors not one. My main feeling has always been the pain every year one at a time for each and every racer watching it happen is FAR greater than a one time declaration that would put us to the final product. Generic classes. Modified eliminator with spec carbs and lb per cubic inch not fake hp ratings which take forever to correct. AH is there but VERY EXPENSIVE. How about the llittle guys. Do we want to keep gouging them in the pocket every year in the name of "fairness" 4 speed s in 55, 3 speed automatics, Aluminum heads for one brand this year. ANy size injectors. Step back and watch what works...AH. No mystery factoring on another motor. They are all the same. As much as I know all brands would make a better show I recognize under current methods by the organization it can never work withing the NHRA or IHRA methods. It is too complex for their methods to handle today.

12-23-2007, 01:43 PM	#28
Chuck Norton Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Covina, CA Posts: 473 Likes: 104 Liked 81 Times in 18 Posts	Re: 4 speeds for 55-56 chevrolet superstockers Dick, Can't say that I disagree. (How'd you like the way the Forum software edited the word "ins*uting?" I didn't type it that way.) Anyway, our form of racing presents an interesting conundrum to rules makers and enforcers. It's the variety of classes and cars that have made it great for everyone for years and ultimately caused the explosion of participation over the last fifteen years. At the same time, the proliferation of participation and the inclination of racers to seek every advantage in an extremely compe*ive arena has created a need for highly-trained and perceptive enforcers. Those guys are rare and are rarer still if they are willing to work for minimal compensation under horrendous conditions. Compare the costs incurred by NASCAR to maintain their technical services division to that of NHRA. I don't have the numbers but I suspect that there is a significant disparity between the two. Is it out of control? I'd say "complicated and evolving" might be more accurate. Is it unworkable? Perhaps it's not worth the effort but, in my opinion, to replace it with a "spec system" in the sense that I understand that term would probably drive out the little guys within a couple of years. Money would trump ingenuity. A good example of what happens to Super Stockers over time when you homogenize the rules and requirements and then let money drive a system of heads-up racing is called Pro Stock. Homogenization of the rules is a slippery slope. Once you start, the end is predictable. What makes Stock and Super Stock great is the variety of people and combinations. The fact that Billy Nees can whip up on Bobby DeArmond or vice-versa is why I get up and go to the shop every day. I really look forward to seeing the combinations that come rolling out of Mark Yacavone's and Neil Smedley's shops. Does the system need some refinement? In my opinion, there are some rough spots. Is it worth trashing what we have just to clean up the rough spots? Once again, in my opinion, as long as the participation is at current levels and new blood keeps flowing in to fill the holes left by those of us who are gathering at the "Rainbow Bridge," it's worth working to save. A few soft horsepower ratings don't ruin the day for me. A few "interesting" combinations are just that, interesting. A few imaginative additions to the parts list don't spell the end of relevance to what I've been doing for longer than the guy in the other lane has been out of diapers. I remember the same things going on in 1964 and we survived it. Heads up racing is fun but it is not the way to keep the entry lists full. Happy Holidays, c

12-23-2007, 05:08 PM	#29
Bill Belden Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: York, PA Posts: 241 Likes: 0 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: 4 speeds for 55-56 chevrolet superstockers You are right Tony, it's a 390 __________________ Bill Belden Retired Stock Eliminator [emailSTK1100@comcast.net[/email]

12-23-2007, 05:28 PM	#30
76 RACER Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 247 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 4 speeds for 55-56 chevrolet superstockers Mr. Norton I am glad to read that I am not the only person that thought the wing on the car of tomorrow is something seen on ricer cars all the time here in the Southwest. Could it be those wings are functional on the ricemobiles and they were ahead of their time with that design? Have a great Holiday and hope to see you this spring.