Darren Smith wins 3 in a row - Page 3

Jim Hanig · 05-07-2007, 07:20 PM

Well Mopar guys got an answer for Dwight.

Bruce Fulper · 05-07-2007, 08:41 PM

I am me. Thank you. Thank you very much. My CD might be on sale at a Wal-Mart near you soon. We're waiting on Ron Ortiz who is supposed to design a label for me.

BTW: A 440 is large Pontiac 400. Same stroke. Better heads. Damn things are a damn good engine. Damnit. Love those 440's. (seriously.)

I miss step.

bill dedman · 05-07-2007, 11:39 PM

Dwight,

Thanks for the correction. I guess they're only small when compared with the three-two-barrel setup that you couldn't get in the A Body cars.

I'd been told that the reason nobody ran one was becaue the carb was too small. The lesson here is, "Don't believe everything you hear."

I appreciate the good information!

Bill

05-07-2007, 11:56 PM

For decades "Direct Connection" (the performance wing of MOPAR) preached in their tech bullitens and the "Direct Connection Bible" that the 440-4 A-bodies could not and would not work. This was stated because of lack of a favorable HP factor compared to the 428 CJ primarily (440-4 since corrected from 375 to 356 today) and lack of traction capabilities.
In the 80's, Neil Smedley and I built an ex Bob Lambeck '68 Dart GTS stocker into a bracket car. Employing all Stocker components on the chassis (SS springs and 9" slicks) except a modified 440 (Torker, .557" solid cam, 850 Holley, roller rockers), it made some serious wheelstands running as well as 11.70's. That proved MOPAR didn't know what they were talking about regarding traction issues! We also fabricated mounts for the 440 on the 340 K-frame in a few hours, also showing MOPAR how to do it without buying their overpriced conversion package. Lesson learned...don't believe half of what you read!

NHRA #7494 SS/H
1970 AMC AMX
"Best Appearing" @ NHRA '06 Pacific Sports Nationals
JeffLeeAzRealty@Qwest.net
602-418-9797

bill dedman · 05-08-2007, 12:31 AM

Thanks, Jeff.

Mopar engineering, for all the hoopla over the '68 A-body Hemi cars, never had a clue as to how to win on the street.

The 440 6-pack motor would have been awesome in an A body '69 'Cuda or Dart, and could have done some serious damage to the competition on Woodward Avenue, but no.... they stuck it in a much heavier Roadrunner chassis and it could barely hold its own against 428 CJ Mustangs and COPO Camaros.

The 340 cars (Dusters etc.) had such poor cylinder heads (mainly exhaust ports; the intakes were actually pretty good) and exhaust manifolds, and diesel-like rods and cranks (compared with the Chevys) that they never dominated like they could have, with better cams and exhaust systems.

The bottom line was, Mopar was never willing to go the extra mile and give the Pentastar faithful what they needed to outrun, rather than just "run with" the competition.

A 340 Duster was no race for an L-79 '66 Nova... but, should have been.

I wonder why they wouldn't, or maybe couldn't do it right?

Ancient history, but it still sticks in my craw...

Bill

Bruce Fulper · 05-08-2007, 01:44 AM

340 Dusters? Did you say 340 Dusters? Why, you really hit a spot right there. Back in the fall of '69 when the new Dusters were hitting the street me and my buddy Carl were killing every one we met with our little lightweight Comet. 260 with 289 heads, and solid lifter cam my brother swiped outa Ford in Cleveland. Toploader and 4:86's. Never got it to the track but we knew it was a thirteen second something as were beat every thirteen second, (so they said,) Duster we raced.

After some of those guys installed bigger cams, shorter gears and headers only then would they get us. Man....yep. It was fun killin' those new cars with our cheapie hot rod Mercury.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../1965Comet.jpg

I miss step.

bill dedman · 05-08-2007, 11:30 AM

Wow, Bruce, what a cool "sleeper!" Looks like you had the right combination of parts, if that thing would actually run 13's with a 260.

Most bone-stock 340 Dusters I saw at the strip ran 14.40s - 14.60s, on street tires with closed exhaust. Put some slicks on them, and add headers and they'd go into the 13's... Add a 4.10 or 4.56 gear and they'd run low 13's, maybe dipping into the high 12's on occasion.

At least, that's the way I remember it, but it was over 35 years ago, so I can't guarantee the veracity of any of that.

I've slept since then...)

In 1971, Ma Mopar swapped a 750 Thermoquad for the smaller, Carter AVS they had been utilizing, and I think they picked up a little on the carb change. But the next year ('72) they lost a lot of compression and dropped the intake valve size from 2.02" to 1.88", and I'm sure that didn't make them any faster...

How do you post a picture to this site?

Bill

Jeff Teuton · 05-08-2007, 11:55 AM

Yall shoulda been around back then. 340 Darts & Demons, 383 Super Bees, which when equipped with A/C came with a Holley and small cam instead of the AVS/big cam (and gave lots of trouble down here in the heat and humidity) lots of 440's, and sold a few six packs in 69, & 70. How about a yellow Coronet R/T with a red stripe and green interior. Didn't look as bad as it sounds. 340-6 were a steal, ins was a problem. Problem with the big block Mopars is we are still running the heads that they quit making at least 30 years ago, while the other brands got new stuff. Oh well, we still got a Hemi so life ain't so bad. We been selling them things since 68. Super Bees were the best overall buy, but the 340 A body was really not expensive. Hemi's, Six packs and other restricted models were a little hard down here. Could not get A/C. The combo that Darren Smith runs I can assure it was never offered to the general dealer body. They did make the car and select dealers got it, but you could not just write an order for the car. It was an easy deal as the 383 was offered in the A Body. And I live in the past I guess. 30 cent gas had over a true 100 octane, the air was clean, sex was dirty and on and on and on. At one time canned bear had a soda bottle top.

Bruce Fulper · 05-08-2007, 12:21 PM

We tortured that 260. 7500 rpm starts with those used seven inch wrinkle walls we got from an older guy in town. He must have been, at least, 25.
!

I put the picture on Photobucket.com - then cut and pasted the URL. You see the other two URL's there? That's cause I wasn't sure which one would work here. You get three URL options on Photobucket.com. It's free BTW.

I miss step.

05-08-2007, 01:49 PM

I don't know Bill....I got my start with street / strip racing with a '71 Challenger I built using an 8.5:1, small valve 340. This is when gas just started getting piss-poor (1978-1982). It was a 7000 RPM screamer, never pinged / detonated and I ran it all the time with 38-40 degrees of timming, which was a huge part of it's success (won numerous street races in high gear when the opponent was rattling, I knew he was toast). MY favorite races were against any BBC, preferably anything that said "SS454" . More than once had to prove it was a small-block as those BBC's didn't take well to loosing to a lowly 340!
I had a friend who's mission in life was to get his bone-stock '69 Dart 340 in the 13's. He did, something like 13.92 with nothing more than jetting and timming.

NHRA #7494 SS/H
1970 AMC AMX
"Best Appearing" @ NHRA '06 Pacific Sports Nationals
JeffLeeAzRealty@Qwest.net
602-418-9797

05-07-2007, 11:39 PM	#23
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Dwight, Thanks for the correction. I guess they're only small when compared with the three-two-barrel setup that you couldn't get in the A Body cars. I'd been told that the reason nobody ran one was becaue the carb was too small. The lesson here is, "Don't believe everything you hear." I appreciate the good information! Bill __________________ Bill

05-08-2007, 12:31 AM	#25
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks, Jeff. Mopar engineering, for all the hoopla over the '68 A-body Hemi cars, never had a clue as to how to win on the street. The 440 6-pack motor would have been awesome in an A body '69 'Cuda or Dart, and could have done some serious damage to the competition on Woodward Avenue, but no.... they stuck it in a much heavier Roadrunner chassis and it could barely hold its own against 428 CJ Mustangs and COPO Camaros. The 340 cars (Dusters etc.) had such poor cylinder heads (mainly exhaust ports; the intakes were actually pretty good) and exhaust manifolds, and diesel-like rods and cranks (compared with the Chevys) that they never dominated like they could have, with better cams and exhaust systems. The bottom line was, Mopar was never willing to go the extra mile and give the Pentastar faithful what they needed to outrun, rather than just "run with" the competition. A 340 Duster was no race for an L-79 '66 Nova... but, should have been. I wonder why they wouldn't, or maybe couldn't do it right? Ancient history, but it still sticks in my craw... Bill __________________ Bill

05-08-2007, 11:30 AM	#27
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Wow, Bruce, what a cool "sleeper!" Looks like you had the right combination of parts, if that thing would actually run 13's with a 260. Most bone-stock 340 Dusters I saw at the strip ran 14.40s - 14.60s, on street tires with closed exhaust. Put some slicks on them, and add headers and they'd go into the 13's... Add a 4.10 or 4.56 gear and they'd run low 13's, maybe dipping into the high 12's on occasion. At least, that's the way I remember it, but it was over 35 years ago, so I can't guarantee the veracity of any of that. I've slept since then...) In 1971, Ma Mopar swapped a 750 Thermoquad for the smaller, Carter AVS they had been utilizing, and I think they picked up a little on the carb change. But the next year ('72) they lost a lot of compression and dropped the intake valve size from 2.02" to 1.88", and I'm sure that didn't make them any faster... How do you post a picture to this site? Bill __________________ Bill

05-08-2007, 11:55 AM	#28
Jeff Teuton VIP Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Houma, LA Posts: 2,717 Likes: 2 Liked 326 Times in 50 Posts	Yall shoulda been around back then. 340 Darts & Demons, 383 Super Bees, which when equipped with A/C came with a Holley and small cam instead of the AVS/big cam (and gave lots of trouble down here in the heat and humidity) lots of 440's, and sold a few six packs in 69, & 70. How about a yellow Coronet R/T with a red stripe and green interior. Didn't look as bad as it sounds. 340-6 were a steal, ins was a problem. Problem with the big block Mopars is we are still running the heads that they quit making at least 30 years ago, while the other brands got new stuff. Oh well, we still got a Hemi so life ain't so bad. We been selling them things since 68. Super Bees were the best overall buy, but the 340 A body was really not expensive. Hemi's, Six packs and other restricted models were a little hard down here. Could not get A/C. The combo that Darren Smith runs I can assure it was never offered to the general dealer body. They did make the car and select dealers got it, but you could not just write an order for the car. It was an easy deal as the 383 was offered in the A Body. And I live in the past I guess. 30 cent gas had over a true 100 octane, the air was clean, sex was dirty and on and on and on. At one time canned bear had a soda bottle top. __________________ Jeff Teuton 4022 STK

05-07-2007, 07:20 PM	#21
Jim Hanig Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pukwana SD Posts: 858 Likes: 555 Liked 97 Times in 47 Posts	Well Mopar guys got an answer for Dwight.

05-07-2007, 08:41 PM	#22
Bruce Fulper Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 651 Likes: 4 Liked 54 Times in 33 Posts	I am me. Thank you. Thank you very much. My CD might be on sale at a Wal-Mart near you soon. We're waiting on Ron Ortiz who is supposed to design a label for me. BTW: A 440 is large Pontiac 400. Same stroke. Better heads. Damn things are a damn good engine. Damnit. Love those 440's. (seriously.) I miss step.

05-07-2007, 11:56 PM	#24
Jeff Lee Guest Posts: n/a	For decades "Direct Connection" (the performance wing of MOPAR) preached in their tech bullitens and the "Direct Connection Bible" that the 440-4 A-bodies could not and would not work. This was stated because of lack of a favorable HP factor compared to the 428 CJ primarily (440-4 since corrected from 375 to 356 today) and lack of traction capabilities. In the 80's, Neil Smedley and I built an ex Bob Lambeck '68 Dart GTS stocker into a bracket car. Employing all Stocker components on the chassis (SS springs and 9" slicks) except a modified 440 (Torker, .557" solid cam, 850 Holley, roller rockers), it made some serious wheelstands running as well as 11.70's. That proved MOPAR didn't know what they were talking about regarding traction issues! We also fabricated mounts for the 440 on the 340 K-frame in a few hours, also showing MOPAR how to do it without buying their overpriced conversion package. Lesson learned...don't believe half of what you read! NHRA #7494 SS/H 1970 AMC AMX "Best Appearing" @ NHRA '06 Pacific Sports Nationals JeffLeeAzRealty@Qwest.net 602-418-9797

05-08-2007, 01:44 AM	#26
Bruce Fulper Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 651 Likes: 4 Liked 54 Times in 33 Posts	340 Dusters? Did you say 340 Dusters? Why, you really hit a spot right there. Back in the fall of '69 when the new Dusters were hitting the street me and my buddy Carl were killing every one we met with our little lightweight Comet. 260 with 289 heads, and solid lifter cam my brother swiped outa Ford in Cleveland. Toploader and 4:86's. Never got it to the track but we knew it was a thirteen second something as were beat every thirteen second, (so they said,) Duster we raced. After some of those guys installed bigger cams, shorter gears and headers only then would they get us. Man....yep. It was fun killin' those new cars with our cheapie hot rod Mercury. http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../1965Comet.jpg I miss step.

05-08-2007, 12:21 PM	#29
Bruce Fulper Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 651 Likes: 4 Liked 54 Times in 33 Posts	We tortured that 260. 7500 rpm starts with those used seven inch wrinkle walls we got from an older guy in town. He must have been, at least, 25. ! I put the picture on Photobucket.com - then cut and pasted the URL. You see the other two URL's there? That's cause I wasn't sure which one would work here. You get three URL options on Photobucket.com. It's free BTW. I miss step.

05-08-2007, 01:49 PM	#30
Jeff Lee Guest Posts: n/a	I don't know Bill....I got my start with street / strip racing with a '71 Challenger I built using an 8.5:1, small valve 340. This is when gas just started getting piss-poor (1978-1982). It was a 7000 RPM screamer, never pinged / detonated and I ran it all the time with 38-40 degrees of timming, which was a huge part of it's success (won numerous street races in high gear when the opponent was rattling, I knew he was toast). MY favorite races were against any BBC, preferably anything that said "SS454" . More than once had to prove it was a small-block as those BBC's didn't take well to loosing to a lowly 340! I had a friend who's mission in life was to get his bone-stock '69 Dart 340 in the 13's. He did, something like 13.92 with nothing more than jetting and timming. NHRA #7494 SS/H 1970 AMC AMX "Best Appearing" @ NHRA '06 Pacific Sports Nationals JeffLeeAzRealty@Qwest.net 602-418-9797