SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$ - Page 3

Ed Carpenter · 05-05-2009, 07:42 PM

I use Tim Hyatt's clutch. He has good stuff. ED

Jeff Lee · 05-06-2009, 01:23 AM

As you step in, you'll spend just as much either way or at least the difference will be negligible. The problems with an automatic are you will no doubt need more than one convertor or at the very least you will have to pull it out and send it in for changes you will eventuall learn are needed. At $1200 or so for a quality hand built / custom convertor (at least $900), owning a few can break the bank.
The nice thing about a stick (besides the fun factor, which it is), if you buy the right clutch assembly the first time, it will be all you need and it's infinitially adjustable.
You can buy clutch assemblies from all kinds of sources but there is only one manufacturer that TRULY knows how to provide the right consultation from install to what to do at the track and is almost always just a phone call away. That's Advanced Clutches (note to administrator; I see other sources named on this thread). You can PM me if you need help but it's a google away.
FYI, a good cluch assembly and a great assembly can be three-tenths (or more) apart. So you have to ask yourself, how much would two to three tenths cost if it were up to the engine alone?
You asked about hot-lapping. It's not an issue. In fact, assuming you have the clutch adjusted correctly. It's less of an issue with a stick than an auto as an auto trans retains much more heat (fluid temp) and the a/t trans transmitts more heat back into the engine. I've only made one final in a national and in three days of racing the ET varied only .03 racing morning to late afternoon; three days straight.
As a former a/t racer with all the delay box and auto-shift tricks of the day, I'll say this is the most fun racing I've ever had. Would never go back. But if you don't get the right parts, it will be a major pain in the ***. And as most race parts, it will be more expensive in the long run. Not counting lost rounds.

Darrin Christen · 05-06-2009, 02:52 AM

Thanks Jeff. Which one would be faster, auto or stick in a car with the same weight. Also in a modified class with a weight break given to the auto is it worth carrying the extra weight to run the stick. It would seem like the stick would be more efficient overall. But Its hard to imagine it would be worth carrying an extra 250#.

randy wilson · 05-06-2009, 06:19 AM

thaks brad, thanks scotty, will be running comp this fall. and darren, i have limited experience with an automatic but i can run quicker with standard transmission. that is carrying the extra weight. but the fastest guys in nhra are autos.

Jeff Lee · 05-06-2009, 11:39 AM

All apples to apples the stick is usually better. A 250# weight penalty would be pretty stiff. But in S/SS there are no weight penalties (unless there is in the modified class). There are instances were the index is harder on stick combos. I run SS/G-H-I and the index is only .05 apart per class instead of the normal .015. Another example is SS/J vs. SS/JA. That index is .015 apart but the fastest SS/J will out run the fastest SS/JA on a heads-up run while the SS/JA will out qualify the SS/J.
I think it usually boils down to many of the stick racers are just stubborm and determined to race a stick. Many aren't even chasing records or low qualifying times. But some, like me, are. That's just my bag. Dig it. Groovy....

Ed Carpenter · 05-06-2009, 12:17 PM

Darrin are you going to be in Houston next weekend? If so look me up. ED

Dragsinger · 05-06-2009, 04:42 PM

All this talk about manual trans has me interested.

My latest build up is a 1990 Firebird that I plan to race in local brackets. The plan is a relatively mild build up to run low 10's. So just how would a four speed manual be in this combination?

Thanks
Larry Woodfin

Scotty D · 05-06-2009, 06:38 PM

larry the 4speed will hold up just fine,and be more efficient than an automatic.this part of the equation i hope jeff lee will correct where i'm wrong.the misnomer is that you have to work on them all the time that however is as far from the truth as you can get.if you build it bullet proof to begin with you shouldn't have to work on except for general maintance.i was talking to a guy here in cincy on this very subject at our first stick race of the year(i help with the umtr its a manual transmission series its in Ohio) his name is robby kropfeld,his dad drove the miss budwieser hydroplane racve boat for many years,robby is a very accomplished driver has won several big money bracket races.robby had said that he would like to build a stick to run with us,but he didn't want to have to work on it all the time.a friend dave stehlin who is the director of umtr has a all steel 79 z-28 that weighs 3400 lbs and runs 9.50,it is powered by a 415 small block and a clutch assisted jerico,he put a good slipper clutch in it and put approximately 300 passes on it,at that point had the clutch rebuilt and put a new ring and pinion just to be safe.also checked the trans and everything was a ok and rebuilt the motor.and all of this was with no more than general oil changes,valve adjustments and every 30 passes would do a clutch adjustment.if you would like you can go to the umtr website and ask all kinds of question everybody over there loves to talk stick cars and answer questions.

Darrin Christen · 05-06-2009, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deuces wild

Darrin are you going to be in Houston next weekend? If so look me up. ED

Yes ED, I will be there and will look for you.

Darrin Christen · 05-06-2009, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

All apples to apples the stick is usually better. A 250# weight penalty would be pretty stiff. But in S/SS there are no weight penalties (unless there is in the modified class). There are instances were the index is harder on stick combos. I run SS/G-H-I and the index is only .05 apart per class instead of the normal .015. Another example is SS/J vs. SS/JA. That index is .015 apart but the fastest SS/J will out run the fastest SS/JA on a heads-up run while the SS/JA will out qualify the SS/J.
I think it usually boils down to many of the stick racers are just stubborm and determined to race a stick. Many aren't even chasing records or low qualifying times. But some, like me, are. That's just my bag. Dig it. Groovy....

Jeff, I have been looking into the SS/Modified Stock classes and the way I read the rules there is a weight break for the autos. I forget exactly how it reads, but it talks about 250lbs or some percentage of weight. If its 250lbs extra for a stick, thats a lot to overcome in my opinion. The index is the same for the autos and the sticks in the modified stock class. SS/AS SS/BS SS/CS and so on.

05-05-2009, 07:42 PM	#21
Ed Carpenter Live Reporter Join Date: May 2006 Location: Dripping Springs, Tx Posts: 2,709 Likes: 186 Liked 520 Times in 132 Posts	Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$ I use Tim Hyatt's clutch. He has good stuff. ED __________________ Ed Carpenter 2005 Chevy Cobalt A/SM Race Engine Development

05-06-2009, 01:23 AM	#22
Jeff Lee VIP Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Anthem, Arizona Posts: 2,766 Likes: 0 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$ As you step in, you'll spend just as much either way or at least the difference will be negligible. The problems with an automatic are you will no doubt need more than one convertor or at the very least you will have to pull it out and send it in for changes you will eventuall learn are needed. At $1200 or so for a quality hand built / custom convertor (at least $900), owning a few can break the bank. The nice thing about a stick (besides the fun factor, which it is), if you buy the right clutch assembly the first time, it will be all you need and it's infinitially adjustable. You can buy clutch assemblies from all kinds of sources but there is only one manufacturer that TRULY knows how to provide the right consultation from install to what to do at the track and is almost always just a phone call away. That's Advanced Clutches (note to administrator; I see other sources named on this thread). You can PM me if you need help but it's a google away. FYI, a good cluch assembly and a great assembly can be three-tenths (or more) apart. So you have to ask yourself, how much would two to three tenths cost if it were up to the engine alone? You asked about hot-lapping. It's not an issue. In fact, assuming you have the clutch adjusted correctly. It's less of an issue with a stick than an auto as an auto trans retains much more heat (fluid temp) and the a/t trans transmitts more heat back into the engine. I've only made one final in a national and in three days of racing the ET varied only .03 racing morning to late afternoon; three days straight. As a former a/t racer with all the delay box and auto-shift tricks of the day, I'll say this is the most fun racing I've ever had. Would never go back. But if you don't get the right parts, it will be a major pain in the ***. And as most race parts, it will be more expensive in the long run. Not counting lost rounds. __________________ Jeff Lee 7494 D/S '70 AMX

05-06-2009, 02:52 AM	#23
Darrin Christen Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Des Allemands, LA Posts: 365 Likes: 8 Liked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$ Thanks Jeff. Which one would be faster, auto or stick in a car with the same weight. Also in a modified class with a weight break given to the auto is it worth carrying the extra weight to run the stick. It would seem like the stick would be more efficient overall. But Its hard to imagine it would be worth carrying an extra 250#. __________________ 4878 SS/GA 66CHEVY II

05-06-2009, 06:19 AM	#24
randy wilson Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: N/A Posts: 882 Likes: 0 Liked 22 Times in 22 Posts	Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$ thaks brad, thanks scotty, will be running comp this fall. and darren, i have limited experience with an automatic but i can run quicker with standard transmission. that is carrying the extra weight. but the fastest guys in nhra are autos. __________________ don,t have one

05-06-2009, 11:39 AM	#25
Jeff Lee VIP Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Anthem, Arizona Posts: 2,766 Likes: 0 Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$ All apples to apples the stick is usually better. A 250# weight penalty would be pretty stiff. But in S/SS there are no weight penalties (unless there is in the modified class). There are instances were the index is harder on stick combos. I run SS/G-H-I and the index is only .05 apart per class instead of the normal .015. Another example is SS/J vs. SS/JA. That index is .015 apart but the fastest SS/J will out run the fastest SS/JA on a heads-up run while the SS/JA will out qualify the SS/J. I think it usually boils down to many of the stick racers are just stubborm and determined to race a stick. Many aren't even chasing records or low qualifying times. But some, like me, are. That's just my bag. Dig it. Groovy.... __________________ Jeff Lee 7494 D/S '70 AMX

05-06-2009, 12:17 PM	#26
Ed Carpenter Live Reporter Join Date: May 2006 Location: Dripping Springs, Tx Posts: 2,709 Likes: 186 Liked 520 Times in 132 Posts	Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$ Darrin are you going to be in Houston next weekend? If so look me up. ED __________________ Ed Carpenter 2005 Chevy Cobalt A/SM Race Engine Development

05-06-2009, 04:42 PM	#27
Dragsinger VIP Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Liberty City [East Texas] Posts: 1,760 Likes: 5 Liked 99 Times in 60 Posts	Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$ All this talk about manual trans has me interested. My latest build up is a 1990 Firebird that I plan to race in local brackets. The plan is a relatively mild build up to run low 10's. So just how would a four speed manual be in this combination? Thanks Larry Woodfin __________________ Larry Woodfin 471W

05-06-2009, 06:38 PM	#28
Scotty D Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 139 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: SS 3 speed Auto or Stick $$$$$ larry the 4speed will hold up just fine,and be more efficient than an automatic.this part of the equation i hope jeff lee will correct where i'm wrong.the misnomer is that you have to work on them all the time that however is as far from the truth as you can get.if you build it bullet proof to begin with you shouldn't have to work on except for general maintance.i was talking to a guy here in cincy on this very subject at our first stick race of the year(i help with the umtr its a manual transmission series its in Ohio) his name is robby kropfeld,his dad drove the miss budwieser hydroplane racve boat for many years,robby is a very accomplished driver has won several big money bracket races.robby had said that he would like to build a stick to run with us,but he didn't want to have to work on it all the time.a friend dave stehlin who is the director of umtr has a all steel 79 z-28 that weighs 3400 lbs and runs 9.50,it is powered by a 415 small block and a clutch assisted jerico,he put a good slipper clutch in it and put approximately 300 passes on it,at that point had the clutch rebuilt and put a new ring and pinion just to be safe.also checked the trans and everything was a ok and rebuilt the motor.and all of this was with no more than general oil changes,valve adjustments and every 30 passes would do a clutch adjustment.if you would like you can go to the umtr website and ask all kinds of question everybody over there loves to talk stick cars and answer questions.