Mixing bearings for clearance

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Well, no offense taken, absolutley none.

Im actually kinda liking you already,
a) youre not saying something I dont know
b)partially accurate, any innacuaracy is not by lack of insight or poor reasoning its actually sound reasoning on your part.
c)Said what others are probably thinking but said it in a very considerate and helpful manner.

No offense at all, quite the opposite, comment appreciated and honesty appreciated.

The coatings weve been using extensivley on bikes for 20 years, that "old hat" as it were, they cryo , thats new to me but well, in the end Im only looking to lengthen the failure curve across the board between cryo and coatings perhaps 5% so that is a reasonable application and expectation I feel.

As time allows my buddies over at (an unname defense contractor here)are going to use some of the "really" trick stuff that requires things like charged phosgene fields and stuff that well, makes me nervous to even touch afterward..lol..but finding time to get it in a prototrype batch of torpedo parts gets a little "when it can be done"....so later not for the next 2 or 3 motors

Youre right , the learing experience isnt going to be cheap but our next 3 motor will be under 10k for 3 , yes for 3 complete motors.....that is a)an assortmnent of parts we already had (5.7 blocks) new DP pistons, rods, bolts, timing, pans, heads 1 extra pair of DP heads, and all the other goodies, I am 2k under that now and have all the parts in house to do 3 more motors (well the last set of pistons is on its way) Sounds crazy but this stuff (NOT the DP Specific stuff pistons and pan) is CHEAP, like crank block, rods, bolts rckers, shafts, pushrods etc, all less pistons and pan... all under 2000..... (900 of that is block and we already had 2 new 5.7 "freebie blocks".....

I learn by doing, and failing, and succedding and lather rinse repeat.

I dont want someone else to build the motors, I heard things I didnt like about the "accepted or what I should do" in regards to clearances, funny thing is Im pretty sure I didnt like it , others have agreed it was too tight.

So I ask, I weigh, I decide. I do ask things I have an opinion on if I havent decided, I hear and bounce Ideas.

I expect 1 more motor failure before we have the "secret recipe of 11 herbs and coatings"

But youre right, we are going to build 1 of the planned 3 and run it, the old man still wants to do 2 but well.....there are "secret squirrel DP owner Kabal" reasons not to just quite yet. Some, several of these "errors" in items we have just found out over the last few days. (more than we alreay knew about and that was a lot....)

I was asked to look over a collection of antique camera equiptment last night, my friend asked me how I (at 38) am one of the few people in the states that can overhaul and repair a particular type shutter on a camera as I expained, its easy you just need to destroy about 10 irreplacable pieces in short order until you get it right

What me and my father have learned so far is, some things we thought were right were wrong, some things we were told were wrong and we were right and some things we would have never done had it not been for the failures will save us more grief in the future , but we learned by doing it....were hardheaded that way. But its how WE learn....

Thanks for your honest and sincere comment, I hope my post didnt offend it was only meant to give an insight into our thinking and our reasoning.

(PSThis new COMUTER Keyboard SUCKS ! Tommorow....FIX Other Laptop.....)

Cheers

Chris

Originally Posted by LSP

I am going to say what others may be thinking, and don't take this the wrong way, but you need to align yourself with an stocker engine guy that knows what they are doing. Some of questions you ask, and some of the things you say about parts, rpm, and trick of the week coatings really scares me. If you don't, I'm afraid you may be in for a long, expensive education. If you do go it alone, then at least build just one motor to learn with, then if, or when, you have figured it out, spend money on the other motors you have planned. Again, don't take it as a slam, I'd just hate to see you have another oil pan failure.

Good Luck

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Originally Posted by Rich Biebel

Another piece of advice........ditch the oil accumulator......I really see no reason for one on a stocker unless your playing with very low oil in the pan or it is doing giant wheelstands..

The very presence of it was at Mopars guidance for "oiling issue" or reduction of it, its going byebye on the next motor, maybe itll go back maybe not....

Were following Duells lead on this hes not running one either I know a few of the hemis ARE after the Tech bulletin and some prior failures (to ours)

I agree, I dont like it and I dont trust this solenoid and its operation. So its going byebye.....

At this point "were on our own" in regards to motors so, well, I dont have to explain why Im not running something they said to run.....easy..

Thanks

I do have a question in a SBC you are running how much rod offset do you have on a wrist pin from the perpindicular center ? This is a left field question but one for "refrence"

Cheers

Chris

[Rich Biebel]

There is no offset on a small or big block chevy rod. Pin hole and crank pin holes are on center......

I can't think of any common engines that use offset rods. Pistons pushing on rods off center from the rod? I am not familiar with any engine that has this design....

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Originally Posted by Rich Biebel

There is no offset on a small or big block chevy rod. Pin hole and crank pin holes are on center......

I can't think of any common engines that use offset rods. Pistons pushing on rods off center from the rod? I am not familiar with any engine that has this design....

Its done in small bore engines all the time in their "street" trim, used to be more common it helps quiet forged slugs during expansion a bit and for example on a 2 stroke, well piston slap is a biggie since hanging ports is a great way to start a new small shiny part collection.

It was my understanding (apparently incorrect) that some of the small chevs did this commonly.

Not rather the rod is offset but from the journal to the pin in straight fashion is sometimes by say .030-070 pistons are also different for the pin offset.

I know in the LS stuff there is now a "offset rod" that puts it on center since the Hemi is using a LS 6.200 .927 rod, I wanted to see what options were available to get the CORRECT offset (as in 0) because the use of the Scat rods does just that it does not sit in the center of the pin, and my bearing sideload will be greater, cap stess on bolt greater at High RPM, and it would really flipping explain what I am seeing now on several motors in regards to the bearings along the radius side where the cranks mic perfect.....but it looks on the bearing like the journals arent square...

Like I said I thought the SBC was this way my bad.

[Rich Biebel]

Stock pistons often have an offset but the rods themselves are not offset. The offset is about .060" on a small block......Maybe that is what you meant and I misunderstood the question......In Stock we often used TRW pistons and turned them around so the offset went the other way...... The TRW forged pistons that were used to build a 350 Stocker engine has the offset in the pin hole......L-2256.....forged flatop 4 valve relief......Hang them on the rods so the arrow that is normally facing forward is toward the rear......

I had a G-H/SA '69 Nova back in the '90's and built a "cheap" shortblock using those pistons.........Dykes rings with spacers......

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

[QUOTE=Rich Biebel;176267]Maybe that is what you meant and I misunderstood the question......QUOTE]

It was, the answer was worded wrong, I have my kids over and I miswrote what I meant being shot at with a large plastic man from a cannon as well as dressin barbie dolls in between. Its like herding cats right now.


That was it.....I miswrote what I mean ,I used the phrase perpindicular to the center , and that was not even close to what I meant...

Wonder if there is a Leauge for herding cats ? Id be ace...

[Alan Roehrich]

Buy your self a good bolt stretch gauge and use it religiously, forget using a torque wrench on rod bolts. And use it when you check the big end of the round for straightness and roundness. You are doing that, aren't you? Use the bolt stretch gauge when you check the ID of the bearing in the rod, too.

The old rule of thumb "0.001" of clearance for every 1" of journal diameter" will do you just fine until you figure out the real needs of the engine. It holds true in most engines, especially when the rod journals are between 2.0" and 2.3", and when the main journals are between 2.3" and 2.75". This is if you are using any good race oil between 5W/20 and 15W/40. If you run 20W/50 (why?) go a little looser, if you run 0W/10, tighten it up some.

A properly plumbed accumulator will not cause a problem, an improperly plumbed accumulator will blow your engine.

I like coated bearings, I have mine done at HM Elliott. We could do our own, but considering the time and operation involved, we don't. Honestly, they sell me the bearings already coated cheaper than I can buy them and coat them myself, if I consider time, materials, and equipment. They now do the coating for Mahle Clevite. They coat my skirts, if I don't have it done when I buy the pistons.

Avoid the rest of the trick stuff. If it won't live at all without cryo and DLC, it won't live anyway. Yes, you can do that stuff later and maybe find some gains. But right now, you need something that runs and lives. Follow the number 1 rule of engineering, because it applies to racing just as well: KISS. Keep It Simple, Stupid. A wise old racer named Tom Polk once told me "Tricks are for kids, you pour 'em in a bowl, pour milk on 'em, and eat 'em". Some of the best advice I've ever gotten in well over 30 years of this stuff.

You need good solid machine work, and good solid basic parts. All of the other silly stuff will do nothing but cause you problems, at least until you have 3-4 good solid engines you've done that run well and last. After that, then you go fooling with the rest of it.

By the way, you've already met a real good guy to help you through all of this, Bill Grubbs. Talk to him, listen to him, and pay attention. He knows a lot more than he lets on, and he'll show you the ropes. He's no engine builder, and he'll tell you that. But he knows who IS an engine builder, and where to get good advice and information.

[Chris "drooze" Wertman]

Buy your self a good bolt stretch gauge and use it religiously, forget using a torque wrench on rod bolts. And use it when you check the big end of the round for straightness and roundness. You are doing that, aren't you?

Checking stretch, yeah normally, on these last 2 bottom ends no, we didnt put em together and well, yes we will.

The old rule of thumb "0.001" of clearance for every 1" of journal diameter" will do you just fine until you figure out the real needs of the engine. It holds true in most engines, especially when the rod journals are between 2.0" and 2.3", and when the main journals are between 2.3" and 2.75". This is if you are using any good race oil between 5W/20 and 15W/40. If you run 20W/50 (why?) go a little looser, if you run 0W/10, tighten it up some.

Thanks, that makes sense, I am going with 5/20 for now, our other engines lived with it just great.

A properly plumbed accumulator will not cause a problem, an improperly plumbed accumulator will blow your engine.

Its plumbed right, pretty hard to plumb it wrong on this engine It is/was working properly I put an inline shutoff valve so I can shut it full, manunally to pull a full accumulator should I want to, shut off kill engine, drain, precharge right, proper quantity in accumulator, set to 20 psi drainback....I dont like the solenoid valve it had but Ive seen the same exact valve failt in Gas and Steam applications. (it a personal thing


Avoid the rest of the trick stuff. If it won't live at all without cryo and DLC, it won't live anyway. Yes, you can do that stuff later and maybe find some gains

Not looking for gains really, the issue with these engines, sort of is there are really NO other parts that are accepted other than the OE parts on many items, Rockers are powdered metal for example and prone with a score to shatter, that happens even in street engines with a high lift and ramp, the other item are the shafts, noone is making a hardened shaft for these, I am going to have some chromed perhaps, I havent decided, I want to see what the DLC does there, even with mild short run time the damm things gall horrible, on a street engine as well, they well, just suck. And on, those are the things Im trying to lenghten the life of just a bit. Turning one of these at 7k+ makes the shafts look like crap in short order , so.....it annoys me, they are way too soft, and until I can get some new ones made, or ordered that are harder, well this is the only option I have.

You need good solid machine work, and good solid basic parts. All of the other silly stuff will do nothing but cause you problems, at least until you have 3-4 good solid engines you've done that run well and last. After that, then you go fooling with the rest of it.

Turnaround time is an issue for us, my buddy well hes knee deep in Merlin V12's and a few Jumo's P&W and other warbird crap for the Air Season...Noone else (for THIS 5.7 can turn stuff around fast enough) the next 2 I should be able to find someone solid.....I hope.......

Agreed, the shafts and rockers are something we have always fought and so do other guys even in HP street apps, its life , other than a 2000$ jessel conversion, and well cant exactly run that here. The rods suck period, and Monday Im going to be back on the phone as others suggested trying to find SOMETHING that will fly and I can get approved. Eagle is as good a bet as any. But the first 5.7 will still have the Scat rods, the only other option is to sit around and hope and wait someone will offer a rod....yeah that aint happening.

By the way, you've already met a real good guy to help you through all of this, Bill Grubbs. Talk to him, listen to him, and pay attention. He knows a lot more than he lets on, and he'll show you the ropes. He's no engine builder, and he'll tell you that. But he knows who IS an engine builder, and where to get good advice and information.

Bill was very very helpful, and well, one of my biggest regrets was having to pull out and not being able to pick his brain some more I hope to see him again soon at the track. He is sharp as a tack and I know what he says is true it takes about 10 seconds to spot that.....as far as how much he knows I have no doubt it is extensive, experience breeds that.

And well, were on a Crash Course Stock Elim "experience" just hoping using the word Crash dosent come back to haunt me...lol

Alll excellent advice.

Cheers

Chris