Schubeck Lifter Update

[Fishlips]

I have never run the Schubeck lifters although I do have two sets in the garage for an upcomming Stocker project. What type of pushrods are you running and what is the possibility that the stock rockers and pushrods are flexing enough to allow the lifters to smack back down on the cam instead of following the ramp? Another thing, you mentioned. You thought you had punched another hole in a rocker arm. Was this lifter on one of the lobes where you had a rocker arm failure?

I have found on my super stocker (the hard way I might add) that if for any reason the rocker arm comes loose and the lash gets big, breaking a rocker arm or anything, then you must replace the lifter on that cylinder. It is going to break!! It may not happen that day or even that race, but within a few runs it is going to destroy the lifter!!!!!!! I have had this happen enough to realize it is a must to replace the lifter after it has run uncontrolled on the cam lobe. I believe the cam smacks the lifter and damages it.

Maybe you had previously damaged the lifter and after a while it fails.
Just a thought!
Good luck!!

[Jeff Lee]

FYI, here in the USA we call it "exhibition of speed" and it's a license revoking 8 point penalty, same as "street racing". Sometimes involves jail time and confiscating your vehicle. Permanently. Wouldn't matter if you had the only car on the road for miles. But maybe it's different in Canada? Next time the Royal Canadian Mounted Police drop by your shop ask them if it's OK. NHRA was formed to combat this type of activity. What your doing takes away from the credibility of the sport. We like to "drag race", you like to "street race". You're on the street and you're making acceleration trials. That's "street racing".
No, I entirely disagree with your statement "Simply, if acting responsibly, it's a SAFE environment to tune the car". Most of us did the same when we were 16 years old. But now we are adults. Or at least we're supposed to act like it.

To LNorton,
I would be upset if the lifters were a problem also. But I'm not convinced the problem is with the lifter. These ceramic inserts are basically glued on. I'm not sure if anybody has tested a set for long term durability. Just as stated by Fishlips, if the valves are net set correctly or become loose, it will pound on the valvetrain and you can loose the ceramic insert. The pictures seem to indicate that may be the case. Think about it, some of these stock racers adjust their valves at least every race, sometimes more. On my Stocker I found the ONLY way to keep the lash in control was to adjust all 16 every other run! One race with driving in the pits and racing might accumulate 10-15 minutes of run time? Here we have 2.5 hours on the street. That's the equivalent of 10+ races, timewise. I would have adjusted the valves 15-20 times in this period.
Long before Schubecks it has been known the stock eliminator cam and valvtrain are not suitable for street use. Profiles are just too harsh. My opinion is a rocker got loose and pounded the lifter to death.

[Aubrey N Bruneau]

Yes Fishlips, I agree.. lifter striking the cam is the most likely cause of losing the puck.
Have Crane "nitro carb" 1.7 BBC rockers and Comp .080" wall 3/8" pushrods ( about an inch shorter than BBC ). I previously ran this engine for two years, with these lifters, on a cam with the same lobes, but less piston-to-valve clearance. NEVER had any problem with the valve train ( althougth it DID break an ARP rod bolt on no.1 cyl ).

The rocker puncturing was random... this bank, that cylinder... other bank... blah blah blah ( happened 4 times ). Never had a rocker problem on the valve that broke the lifter. Been running mechanical cams for 30+ years, have set a LOT of valves, know how to do it ( ask the guys at Lee Brothers Automotive in Red Deer, how much of a fanatic I am about lash ). And yes, during the time, I did 3 hot adjustments.

Ya' know, Jeff... when I was young, late teens to late 20's, I had occasion to be at a few different drag strips. Sometimes just to watch, a few times with my own car, bracket racing / just trying to have fun.
What became evident all too often, and was quite consistent, was the people. In the pits, in areas where the "stickered cars" were... the real racers, for the most part, was a gathering of rather unpleasant individuals. I'll leave it at that. But suffice it to say, it was the attitude of this "type" that kept me away from a drag strip for over 10 years. Just wasn't that much fun.
Now, I'm trying to be part of that ?

Anyhow, I'll tell you what... I'll go down to my local rcmp station here, and talk to one of the guys/girls, and see what their attitude is.
However, despite the fact that I am clearly offended by your attitude, I will take the "big picture" intent of your comment respectfully, and likely adjust my habits somewhat.

[Bob]

Aubrey,
Don't worry about Jeff''s comments. As usual he is wrong on most of his points.

First off, he said "FYI, here in the USA we call it "exhibition of speed" and it's a license revoking 8 point penalty, same as "street racing". Sometimes involves jail time and confiscating your vehicle. Permanently."
Well maybe in in Arizona, but not in all states. In fact many midwestern states do no use the point system.

Second, he said "What your doing takes away from the credibility of the sport. We like to "drag race", you like to "street race". When he uses the word "we" he is trying to portray that he is speaking on all NHRA members behalf. Trust me he is NOT. Very few share his views.

Third, he said,"You're on the street and you're making acceleration trials. That's "street racing". Ask him how that is ONE BIT DIFFERENT than when he is late to show a house and he speeds down the freeway. Or how it is ONE BIT DIFFERENT than when he leaves a stop light and floors it to get out in front of all the traffic behind him.

[Jeff Lee]

Hey Bob! You should be a lawyer!

[Fishlips]

Hey Jeff,

I argee with Aubrey but am a little less polite, PISS OFF!
What gives you the right to tell someone in another country what to do or impose your view of responsibility on them?

I'm sure your Halo has some tarnish on it too!

Bryan Broaddus

[Aubrey N Bruneau]

Hey Bryan, Bob, Jeff...
I look at it this way...
the law should not over-rule common sense.
IS anybody in danger ?
there's NOBODY there
IS the posted speed being greatly exceeding ( danger ) ?
62 MPH speed zone... MAY be reaching 75-80 ( the VAST majority here,. travel at approx 75, and you DO NOT get a ticket for it )
IS the public being interfered with ?
There's no car, no house, no person... no trees... nothing, for miles

I have had a few tickets in my time. I have NEVER lost when I've challenged them in court... on one occasion, the judge recommended charging the highway traffic cop with the offence I had been charged with ( Stoney Plain, Alberta ).
It's simply a matter of being honest, reasonable, and applying common sense.

I apologize for my rather limited financial means. I simply cannot afford to trailer my car at 8 MPG, 280 miles round trip, to a VERY sub-standard drag race facility, on one of their 3 selected days of the year, just to find out my new Wilwood 4 wheel disc brakes don't work properly. Just can't do that.

however, I WILL deter myself from this type of activity ( a blown-up engine is a pretty good deterent ! )

What kind of Valve spring pressure were you running? Open and Closed. When you run a cam with big accelration rates on the lobes valve spring pressure is critical. If you were punching holes in the rockers that sounds like you were floating the valves. Just my take. I hope you keep going with the car, I think it is one of the coolest cars Stock eleminator, and would love to see you run that again when you get it back together. Good luck and we will be watching...

Todd Hoven
1035 STK

[Aubrey N Bruneau]

Lots, Todd....
250+ seat / 470+ open... .508" / .516" lift mechanical ( .014" / .018" lash ).

In my conversation with the fellow from Performance Research, he suggested that my spring pressure may not cure the problem, but rather it could be due to the "frequency" / harmonics.
I'm going to be sending him a complete "package" that runs on my cam. He says they have a spintron / computer setup / program that will identify the issue ( if any ), and provide the info needed to correct it. Variable rate valve springs, with actually LESS pressure.
Less pressure makes me happy !

Like I said.... I will be going to the tool steel parts.
Decided to replace pistons too. At the end of the honing, I will be at .075" over, and WAY too much piston-to-wall ( .012" - .013" ). I like .009"

Thanks Todd

[Jeff Lee]

You shouldn't apologize for anything to do with your finances.
And I've been in countries that don't exactly follow what would be normal in the USA (although some of you apparently don't have a sense of normalcy if you think taking your race car on the street for testing is normal). In Prague, CZ we were nearly run over on two occassions by Ralley Driver Dreamers, taxi and pizza delivery. They like to drive full bore on the streets and slide around the corners.
But my view still stands and just as you can express your opinion here, I will too. And I wont even tell you to piss off either. Seems to me this forum is based on NHRA or IHRA drag racing events and those that follow. NHRA started with the notion of getting the street racers off the street and onto a track. Can't see that that idea is bad, has changed or applies to this country only. And I don't begin to think I have a halo. As I expressed to Aubrey in a PM exchange, I've had two exhibition of speed tickets and one drag racing all before I was 20. Just like many here I've been in countless street races. But at 47, I think that's behind me. And yes, everytime I drive fast, I take a risk of a ticket. In AZ, 15+ over the limit is grounds for Criminal conviction and jail. It's in California were Bryan lives that they confiscate your car. Apparently the problem became pretty severe if that program was implemented.
You guys think "testing" your race car on the street is acceptable then good luck. I'm sure you will all get on here and defend those actions when somebody is killed, right?
In hindsight where I said "we" in the previous post, I should have said "I" since maybe I'm the only one that believes what I said. But if your racing or testing around my kids on the street, don't think I'm going to keep quite about it. Then we'll see who's more "pissed off!" I'll be more than happy to call 911 and see if you can talk your way out of it.