Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 - Page 20

DeuceCoupe · 11-03-2021, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldskool

"...B/SA=
8.50 in 1968
8.00 in 1969..."

That solves the '68 B/SA pic, for me. Dealers usually ran the cars while they were still the current model year.

According to my math, using an online calculator, a factor of at least 391hp would have been needed to put a '69 Bird into class B. S0, anything from 391 thru 414 would put it into B. 415 would put it into A, & 390 would put it into C, IF my calculations are correct.

So, could it have possibly been 395, 400, 405, or 410, in '69, maybe ?

Yes that's the right track. I dont KNOW for sure what the RA2 was factored to, so in theory it could be up there.

The RA4 was factored to 380hp, so unless there was a special RA4 factor for just the 69 Firebird (not likely back then) I'd rule that one out.

When I look at where the RA4 GTO's ran, their RA4 had to be factored to 380hp, maybe 385hp but no more than that, and Dwight S said 380hp on the other thread.

So I'm still betting Ben Wolf was a really high factored RA2, or a Chevelle300 or Nova L72 car (1969 was the 1st year for auto trans for the L72). Just dont know.

Rat Patrol · 11-04-2021, 03:37 AM

DC....Its OK, I put it out. A guy had difficulty believing the L72 Camaro could be in SS/E.

In fact, its right on the line btwn SS/D and SS/E (7.56). When I pointed out the SS/C ZL1 was at 6.51..he started to realise how little separates the classes.

As an additional ‘win’, I was able to show how the 396 68 Nova met SS/D in 68, but slipped to SS/E in 69.....due to weight break changes.

I think a lot of people struggle with the concept of a 396 Nova racing an L72 Camaro....but the weight breaks don’t lie....just shows what a pig that L72 motor was!

But seriously......your sheets are invaluable....good job!!

oldskool · 11-04-2021, 06:09 PM

"...Dwight S said 380hp on the other thread..."

Maybe it was 380 at the beginning of the season, then increased later in the season. That could make it possible that a '69 Bird could have run C/SA at the Winter Nats, then B/SA at a later '69 season race.

Maybe the Phil Monteith '69 Bird ran B/SA at either an AHRA or IHRA track. Or maybe that pic was taken in a later year. Or ?

It's possible that not a single Pontiac combo ran NHRA B/SA, in '69. Not sure.

Was a '69 RAIV Bird available early enuff in '68 to make some of the late season races ?

DeuceCoupe · 11-04-2021, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeuceCoupe

B/SA=
8.50 in 1968
8.00 in 1969
7.50 in 1970-71
???? 1972
8.50 in 1973-up
So I'd guess those pictures were either 1968 or 1973-up.

But again, I dont KNOW the RA2 "factor" - I had guessed about 375hp prior to this strange Ben Wolf car. That 375hp fits all the other RA2 cars, Fields etc, that I can find. But 375hp wont put Ben Wolf in B/SA=8.00.

I'm with you, starting to think the Ben Wolf car just wasnt a Pontiac.
An L72 Chevelle300 fits (easily mistaken for a GTO LOL) or an L72 Nova is a perfect fit (easily mistaken for a Firebird LOL).
We just dont know WHAT the Ben Wolf B/SA=8.00 car is.

Dwight said the RA2=385hp factored by NHRA, which still puts the RA2 Firebird at
3300/385=8.57 or C/SA=8.50 in 1969

I think the RA4 was at 380hp all thru because there are RA4 cars in the wins/records from early 1969 thru late 1970 that all fit 380hp.

So my bets for the Ben Wolf car:
69 Chevelle300 L72
69 Nova L72
67 Comet 427-4v
64 Belvedere MaxWedge
Those all fit B/SA=8.00.
I guess you could mistake those 4 cars for Pontiacs but it'd have to be pretty dark.

Rat Patrol · 11-05-2021, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeuceCoupe

I guess you could mistake those 4 cars for Pontiacs but it'd have to be pretty dark.

Now THAT is funny! 😆😆

oldskool · 11-05-2021, 01:39 AM

"...Dwight said the RA2=385hp factored by NHRA...

I think the RA4 was at 380hp all thru because there are RA4 cars in the wins/records from early 1969 thru late 1970 that all fit 380hp..."

I find that REAL interesting.

WHY ?

Because the '69 RA4 had the same cam, BUT, the RA4 used 1.65 ratio rockers, whereas the RA2 only had 1.5 rockers. This gave that engine more valve lift & more effective duration, which HAD to produce more power.

THEREFORE, why would NHRA actually rate the RA2 engine higher ? Don't make any common sense.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...2&MAKE=Pontiac

Don't think it actually increased power output, but the RA4 also had an alum intake. Seems that NHRA would have taken this into consideration & initially given the RA4 a slightly higher hp factor. or at the very least, the same as the RA2. Can't think of a single reason to rate the RA4 LESS than the RA2.

The answer to WHY, would be very interesting to me.

AND, after a few '69 Judge Stockers began setting records & winning class at some races, seems that NHRA would have taken another look at the RA4 engine & upped the hp factor.

"...???? 1972..."

Yeah, I think I posted a pic of Truman Fields running A/S @ the Summer Nats, in '72. So, that was a special year. Seems that Stock had sort of "Pure Stock" rules that year. I suppose the weight breaks were different, which caused Truman's Bird to run A/S. He even set an A/S record.

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=51198

Then, '73 was the year Truman won Stock @ Indy, running C/S. Then, in '77, Mike McKinney won Stock @ Indy, running that same car, in B/S. Lots of rules changes back in those days.

Pic #7 shows Truman running in D/S. Don't know what year that was.

He ran '68 Birds with several different paint schemes. Pic #8 shows one of 'em, with B/S on it. Also have a pic of it that color, running C/S.

Pic #9 shows a Burgundy color he ran, in D/S. So, these pics show Truman Birds in 3 color schemes & 4 different classes. He also moved several times, as noted by the different perm numbers.

Rat Patrol · 11-07-2021, 02:58 AM

Well, the Wolfe car will have to remain a mystery - Ive put the RA2 in my web site....with a question mark.

I think the most likely thing we’ve uncovered is he was probably part of the Wolfe & McClelland team.....that does seem to make sense.

oldskool · 11-07-2021, 09:14 AM

"...Ive put the RA2 in my web site....with a question mark..."

can't prove it was or wasn't

Rat Patrol · 11-07-2021, 09:01 PM

OS - I figured going on available info- We have some confirmation of it being a Pontiac, and RA2 Firechicken is about the best fit....so happy to have it as a ‘possible’.

Now I have to re-visit some of the other info thats been raised and correct it.

Rat Patrol · 11-08-2021, 01:21 AM

DC - Was the 396/375hp Chevy motor re-factored in1968 to 425 hp? I seem to recall you saying it was?

11-04-2021, 03:37 AM	#192
Rat Patrol Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 167 Likes: 66 Liked 31 Times in 26 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 DC....Its OK, I put it out. A guy had difficulty believing the L72 Camaro could be in SS/E. In fact, its right on the line btwn SS/D and SS/E (7.56). When I pointed out the SS/C ZL1 was at 6.51..he started to realise how little separates the classes. As an additional ‘win’, I was able to show how the 396 68 Nova met SS/D in 68, but slipped to SS/E in 69.....due to weight break changes. I think a lot of people struggle with the concept of a 396 Nova racing an L72 Camaro....but the weight breaks don’t lie....just shows what a pig that L72 motor was! But seriously......your sheets are invaluable....good job!! Last edited by Rat Patrol; 11-04-2021 at 04:43 PM.

11-04-2021, 06:09 PM	#193
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 750 Times in 361 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 "...Dwight S said 380hp on the other thread..." Maybe it was 380 at the beginning of the season, then increased later in the season. That could make it possible that a '69 Bird could have run C/SA at the Winter Nats, then B/SA at a later '69 season race. Maybe the Phil Monteith '69 Bird ran B/SA at either an AHRA or IHRA track. Or maybe that pic was taken in a later year. Or ? It's possible that not a single Pontiac combo ran NHRA B/SA, in '69. Not sure. Was a '69 RAIV Bird available early enuff in '68 to make some of the late season races ? Last edited by oldskool; 11-05-2021 at 04:45 AM.

11-05-2021, 01:39 AM	#196
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 750 Times in 361 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 "...Dwight said the RA2=385hp factored by NHRA... I think the RA4 was at 380hp all thru because there are RA4 cars in the wins/records from early 1969 thru late 1970 that all fit 380hp..." I find that REAL interesting. WHY ? Because the '69 RA4 had the same cam, BUT, the RA4 used 1.65 ratio rockers, whereas the RA2 only had 1.5 rockers. This gave that engine more valve lift & more effective duration, which HAD to produce more power. THEREFORE, why would NHRA actually rate the RA2 engine higher ? Don't make any common sense. http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...2&MAKE=Pontiac Don't think it actually increased power output, but the RA4 also had an alum intake. Seems that NHRA would have taken this into consideration & initially given the RA4 a slightly higher hp factor. or at the very least, the same as the RA2. Can't think of a single reason to rate the RA4 LESS than the RA2. The answer to WHY, would be very interesting to me. AND, after a few '69 Judge Stockers began setting records & winning class at some races, seems that NHRA would have taken another look at the RA4 engine & upped the hp factor. "...???? 1972..." Yeah, I think I posted a pic of Truman Fields running A/S @ the Summer Nats, in '72. So, that was a special year. Seems that Stock had sort of "Pure Stock" rules that year. I suppose the weight breaks were different, which caused Truman's Bird to run A/S. He even set an A/S record. http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=51198 Then, '73 was the year Truman won Stock @ Indy, running C/S. Then, in '77, Mike McKinney won Stock @ Indy, running that same car, in B/S. Lots of rules changes back in those days. Pic #7 shows Truman running in D/S. Don't know what year that was. He ran '68 Birds with several different paint schemes. Pic #8 shows one of 'em, with B/S on it. Also have a pic of it that color, running C/S. Pic #9 shows a Burgundy color he ran, in D/S. So, these pics show Truman Birds in 3 color schemes & 4 different classes. He also moved several times, as noted by the different perm numbers. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by oldskool; 11-07-2021 at 09:00 AM.

11-07-2021, 02:58 AM	#197
Rat Patrol Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 167 Likes: 66 Liked 31 Times in 26 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 Well, the Wolfe car will have to remain a mystery - Ive put the RA2 in my web site....with a question mark. I think the most likely thing we’ve uncovered is he was probably part of the Wolfe & McClelland team.....that does seem to make sense. Last edited by Rat Patrol; 11-07-2021 at 03:07 AM.

11-07-2021, 09:14 AM	#198
oldskool VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: The Land of Bayous, Boudin & Crawfish Posts: 1,668 Likes: 223 Liked 750 Times in 361 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 "...Ive put the RA2 in my web site....with a question mark..." can't prove it was or wasn't Attached Thumbnails Last edited by oldskool; 11-07-2021 at 09:22 AM.

11-07-2021, 09:01 PM	#199
Rat Patrol Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 167 Likes: 66 Liked 31 Times in 26 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 OS - I figured going on available info- We have some confirmation of it being a Pontiac, and RA2 Firechicken is about the best fit....so happy to have it as a ‘possible’. Now I have to re-visit some of the other info thats been raised and correct it.

11-08-2021, 01:21 AM	#200
Rat Patrol Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 167 Likes: 66 Liked 31 Times in 26 Posts	Re: Project - NHRA Stock and S/S results 61-68 DC - Was the 396/375hp Chevy motor re-factored in1968 to 425 hp? I seem to recall you saying it was?