Indy was boring - no tech/ no ahfs

[brian schuetta]

Been on the fence and in the stands watching, because it's still Indy and it happens once every year.

[Byron Worner]

Mike, if you would reset the horsepower on the 315 combo it would be beat to **** again in two years like it was 15 years ago in about 2 years. I was at the Gatornationals when 3 racers with Cavaliers beat that combo into submission.
Don’t blame the racers for finding a “starting” combo and protecting it according to the rules!
There are plenty of combos out there that are better than the L98. 305 and 360 drag park come to mind.

[Herbie Null]

Originally Posted by Byron Worner

Mike, if you would reset the horsepower on the 315 combo it would be beat to **** again in two years like it was 15 years ago in about 2 years. I was at the Gatornationals when 3 racers with Cavaliers beat that combo into submission.
Don’t blame the racers for finding a “starting” combo and protecting it according to the rules!
There are plenty of combos out there that are better than the L98. 305 and 360 drag park come to mind.

Byron, the same people complaining have been running the same ETs for the last 30 years, with all the aftermarket parts now you would think they would run better. No reason a 350/318 combo shouldn’t run like Wagner’s or Gaffeny’s ����*♂️

[Mike Volkman]

Originally Posted by Herbie Null

Byron, the same people complaining have been running the same ETs for the last 30 years, with all the aftermarket parts now you would think they would run better. No reason a 350/318 combo shouldn’t run like Wagner’s or Gaffeny’s ����*♂️

Herbie - shouldn't be hitting the key board late at nite . We have never run Em on kill at an NHRA event so how does anyone know how fast Em can go nor does anyone know what parts are in it. Just an FYI, both Lincoln's L98 - which is prob the fastest out of the L98 group and EM's 350/300 come out of the same shop. Both have the ability to make the same power. Only difference between the two engines is 2 cc in the combustion chamber. Not sure how that warrants a 400 pound difference at a 10# break. Can we make some improvements? Absolutely! Would it be smart or stupid to spend $xx dollars to pick up a .05-.1 only to still be behind the L98 by .3? If you think so lend me the cash.

BTW - Gaffney (rinehart) could only mustard a .90 run this year at Indy. Brian - good job and congrats on Jegs win - was 1.10 under and I'm guessing, not on kill.

Last year, the Gaffney was .4 behind the fast guys if memory serves me right.

Moving on. Missed the point of this thread.

The racer(s) are not the issue in my opinion unless they are willfully cheating which is different than pushing the rules and taking advantage of what is in place. Grateful that NHRA is checking the car in the other lane and hope they continue to do so. Neither of you are cheaters, nor have I ever seen either of you chase a slower car on the Q sheet.

The issue is the in-effectiveness of the AHFS. Back when, you would show up at a race to find out you received HP. Very subjective. Not sure it wasn't better because out-of-line combos were corrected in a short period of time.

Since 2008, AHFS has not been effective, in my opinion.

Appears NHRA either over reacts or doesn't react when they should for whatever reason. Ex: Overreacting by giving Larry Hill 29 hp at one shot.

The hemi's dominated the Q sheet at Indy one year. Made up many of the top 30 spots. AHFS kicked in and brought them back. Maybe too much. NHRA knee jerked couple years back and gave them index back making them competitive again.

Modified cars dominated another year. They got whacked and for the most part haven't recovered.

They system worked to a point. Was it perfect? No. Did it need human input? Yes. If 1 racer is blistering the track and the others are not then maybe the engine should not receive power. If they're all hot, maybe they need to be brought back to a competitive level, not a death sentence.

The L98 - used as example only - has been running without at adjustments for over 10 years. There are many others the same way w other OEMS's.

Nobody wants HP unless your dumb. I get it. Just want a somewhat level playing field which is one of the basis for class racing and why we run off of indexes.

Maybe they should place all the fuel injected cars in the same eliminator like they did with stock back when. There are many solutions without stirring the fish bowl and killings all the fish.

[Herbie Null]

Mike, look me up at Charlotte. I’m not going to throw people under the bus on a key board. I would like to know more about your combo and some of the crate motor Chrysler combos that only use two barrels when they have four lol. Seems you pick and choose who you throw under the bus. FYI I could give you and Lincoln the exact same motor, car and drive train and I guarantee you he would still out run you by 2 tenths. It’s called work ethic and Lincoln is never satisfied.

[Bryan Worner]

Mike, the L98 hasn’t been run with aftermarket heads for 10 years. The racer or racers that ran it in its early years ran the oem heads. If you ask them they will tell you they were not that good. When the dart heads were approved, it became a stout combo. But thanks to smart racers, the hp has remained the same in SS and only got dinged a little in GT (dish motor).
I would like to know the hp history on the 318 that you run. What hp did it start at, what is it now and how did it get to its current hp?
If you’re so envious of the L98, you can buy mine at the end of the year!

[Mike Volkman]

Not personal or intended to be if it came across like that. There's both sides here. Guys not going to Indy because of AHFS and people going because of it. Same coin and there needs to be some middle ground that all can give in to.

Lincoln is a thrasher.

Not sure how long everyone was using the Dart head. I know the original wasn't too good. Jacobs prob had them good 2 years before us. We've had them for at least 5 years on the 350/300. They were out there before that. The point wasn't so much as the L98 not getting factored as the in-effectiveness of the system to bring some level of parity without burying a combination.

In the earlier example, the hemi's and modified might of had 2 years of rein. It wasn't a long period. The AHFS takes too long for any OEM type, GM, Ford, Mopar and it is not consistent in application. Needs human interaction.

The 318 we ran started out at 235 and the big valve is now 254/258 with replacement heads, in GT. Even though we were fast in the northeast and received power, the 327/250 of DeFrank's would out run us every year at Indy. Neither Tommy or I could beat him. If I recall right, and I may not, Hames and Tim use to have some battles and i believe they were pretty close.

Later on, Layer had a 305/254 carb and I had a 318/254. When we ran we were .02 a part on the track and 1 .014 to a .016 light. Close good racing.

In my opinion, that's what its about.

[Jeff Niceswanger]

Originally Posted by Bryan Worner

Mike, the L98 hasn’t been run with aftermarket heads for 10 years. The racer or racers that ran it in its early years ran the oem heads. If you ask them they will tell you they were not that good. When the dart heads were approved, it became a stout combo. But thanks to smart racers, the hp has remained the same in SS and only got dinged a little in GT (dish motor).
I would like to know the hp history on the 318 that you run. What hp did it start at, what is it now and how did it get to its current hp?
If you’re so envious of the L98, you can buy mine at the end of the year!

I can shed a little light on this. We had one of the first L-98 083 original head combo's rated at 265HP . Gulius ran it with a carburetor because at that point it was hard to find dyno shops, or people that were well versed enough to run and break them in on Fuel Injection. With his dyno Quadrajet, John got 635 HP out of that engine. It made almost as much as his 041's. In his words, it was "nasty". At the time we did not realize that the little 48 mm throttle body was going to take 15-20 HP out of that number. But that's another story. Problem was, every 10 runs it was springing a water leak. They leaked everywhere, combustion chamber, runners, and bowls, they were just a junk scalloped head casting. Dave Layer and myself looked over available heads from Eldebrock, GM, and Dart. We came up with the 070 Dart as being our candidate. We hollered out to the ranks and several of us wrote letters to NHRA, along with Dave being on an every week chat line with Bruce. Eventually Bruce agreed to allow the head. Dave Layer made 4 sets, and three of those leaked almost immediately. So we reached back out to Bruce and ask if we could "Trade Up" to another casting. We choose the Dart 010 as it was thicker than the 070, and with SS being filled back up to the allowed spec's anyway, could he possibly allow it. He wanted to see it, and I drove a bare 010 Dart out to Indianapolis so Bruce could have a look at it. I awaited off to the side while he looked, measured, and thought. He agreed and we then built new Dart 010 heads. I don't think originally those 070's, or 010's made any faster ET's as the OEM 083 because of the 50 lbs. you had to put with them. But currently they are faster because of the relentless push from guys like Lincoln, among several others...

[SS3718]

Originally Posted by Jeff Niceswanger

I can shed a little light on this. We had one of the first L-98 083 original head combo's rated at 265HP . Gulius ran it with a carburetor because at that point it was hard to find dyno shops, or people that were well versed enough to run and break them in on Fuel Injection. With his dyno Quadrajet, John got 635 HP out of that engine. It made almost as much as his 041's. In his words, it was "nasty". At the time we did not realize that the little 48 mm throttle body was going to take 15-20 HP out of that number. But that's another story. Problem was, every 10 runs it was springing a water leak. They leaked everywhere, combustion chamber, runners, and bowls, they were just a junk scalloped head casting. Dave Layer and myself looked over available heads from Eldebrock, GM, and Dart. We came up with the 070 Dart as being our candidate. We hollered out to the ranks and several of us wrote letters to NHRA, along with Dave being on an every week chat line with Bruce. Eventually Bruce agreed to allow the head. Dave Layer made 4 sets, and three of those leaked almost immediately. So we reached back out to Bruce and ask if we could "Trade Up" to another casting. We choose the Dart 010 as it was thicker than the 070, and with SS being filled back up to the allowed spec's anyway, could he possibly allow it. He wanted to see it, and I drove a bare 010 Dart out to Indianapolis so Bruce could have a look at it. I awaited off to the side while he looked, measured, and thought. He agreed and we then built new Dart 010 heads. I don't think originally those 070's, or 010's made any faster ET's as the OEM 083 because of the 50 lbs. you had to put with them. But currently they are faster because of the relentless push from guys like Lincoln, among several others...

Jeff,
Out of curiosity, we’re the OEM and first set of Dart heads junk or they just wouldn’t accept the innovative port design you wanted?

Nick

[bubski]

Originally Posted by Jeff Niceswanger

I can shed a little light on this. We had one of the first L-98 083 original head combo's rated at 265HP . Gulius ran it with a carburetor because at that point it was hard to find dyno shops, or people that were well versed enough to run and break them in on Fuel Injection. With his dyno Quadrajet, John got 635 HP out of that engine. It made almost as much as his 041's. In his words, it was "nasty". At the time we did not realize that the little 48 mm throttle body was going to take 15-20 HP out of that number. But that's another story. Problem was, every 10 runs it was springing a water leak. They leaked everywhere, combustion chamber, runners, and bowls, they were just a junk scalloped head casting. Dave Layer and myself looked over available heads from Eldebrock, GM, and Dart. We came up with the 070 Dart as being our candidate. We hollered out to the ranks and several of us wrote letters to NHRA, along with Dave being on an every week chat line with Bruce. Eventually Bruce agreed to allow the head. Dave Layer made 4 sets, and three of those leaked almost immediately. So we reached back out to Bruce and ask if we could "Trade Up" to another casting. We choose the Dart 010 as it was thicker than the 070, and with SS being filled back up to the allowed spec's anyway, could he possibly allow it. He wanted to see it, and I drove a bare 010 Dart out to Indianapolis so Bruce could have a look at it. I awaited off to the side while he looked, measured, and thought. He agreed and we then built new Dart 010 heads. I don't think originally those 070's, or 010's made any faster ET's as the OEM 083 because of the 50 lbs. you had to put with them. But currently they are faster because of the relentless push from guys like Lincoln, among several others...

Bubski like "my god" You pick a combo with marginal cylinder heads !! Then lobby for replacement heads !! You shoulda picked a 2 barrel class and pissed and moaned you'd like a 4 barrel !! And all would be good in "class racing" What ever happened to choosing a combo ??