2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator

[A/SA Fairlane]

Originally Posted by Lew Silverman

Just a guess, but you don't see regular production cars from the Big Three because they don't submit them to NHRA for classification. It doesn't matter what's out there, if it's not in the guide, it's not legal for Stock Eliminator. That's why I still believe you can't build a Cobra Jet out of a regular production Mustang, because there are too many unique parts and modifications to make the conversion. The only 2012 Ford in the Guide is the Cobra Jet, a limited production vehicle

There are Cobra Jets out there that started life as 6 cylinder mustangs.

[Lew Silverman]

Originally Posted by A/SA Fairlane

There are Cobra Jets out there that started life as 6 cylinder mustangs.

If that is the case, I stand corrected! I had thought that the "Cobra Jet" was a unique model of the Mustang for 2012, and that just adding a Cobra Jet engine to a regular production Mustang wouldn't make that car a Cobra Jet.

Lew

[goinbroke2]

Evan is right. Take a 1970 ford/chev/dodge at it's factory rating (.65...maybe.75) and build it to make 1.5 hp per cube and you got a runner.
Take a 2011 ford/chev/dodge that is factory rated at 1.3 for example, what do you have to do make 2.5-2.8 to be equal?

Weight is also an issue, a lot more **** can come out of a new car compared to old ones so that helps and the chassis are more rigid than ever.

I don't neccessarily agree with .65 factor on new engines as they are inherantly more efficient, BUT, you can't start a car out at 1.3 or 1.5 hp per cube or no one will build it.

Just some numbers of old random combo's;

77 Cad 350 180hp .51 hp per cube
76 chev 305 190hp .62
74 chrysler 400 290 hp .725
70 dodge 318 185hp .58
73 ford 351 240hp .68
72 ford 302 162hp .53

and some random new combo's;
2012 ford 302 325hp 1.07
2010 ford 330 435hp 1.32
2011 dodge 512 450hp .87
2010 dodge 345 305hp .88
2010 chev 376 400hp 1.06

My conclusion would be that the newer engines compared to older engines are starting out higher before any adjustments than the older stuff did. Slight mind you (.8 vs .6) but higher none the less.

This just leaves less "room" for improving. I don't want to build a 2bbl 302 at 300hp to start out with, but at 162? lots of room there. Do I want to start out with a new engine at 1.3hp per cube...to START with? Uh..no. Put it at .8 or so and then hit it as it's improved....like every other engine in the guide has done

[Damn Yankee]

I appreciate everyones reply's. I never thought about the factory's HP rating, and what this thing would have to weigh when I first thought about this. And Evan's point's about efficiency are spot on. You can look at comparing the valvetrain of a 1968 302 set-up, and then look at the modular 7500 RPM plus set-up. Enough said. Now, just what to build with this 2009 BIW thats sitting in the garage. Thanks fella's

[69Cobra]

Originally Posted by Damn Yankee

I appreciate everyones reply's. I never thought about the factory's HP rating, and what this thing would have to weigh when I first thought about this. And Evan's point's about efficiency are spot on. You can look at comparing the valvetrain of a 1968 302 set-up, and then look at the modular 7500 RPM plus set-up. Enough said. Now, just what to build with this 2009 BIW thats sitting in the garage. Thanks fella's

Send it to MPR and tub it and 4 link it. Put a clutchless 5 speed in it with a 5.4 supercharged motor and go super stock racing. That was an easy question to answer.

[Evan Smith]

Chad,

The LS-1 engine also started somewhere around 325, not 426 like the current LS in the 2012 Camaro. That's a 100 hp difference!

Evan

[Evan Smith]

Lew,

It is not the responsibility of the manufacturer to send in the specs for all new cars. They have better things to do these days, like figuring out how to keep afloat. If a racer requests that a combination be submitted, then the manufacturer will do it. There are people at Ford, GM, and Dodge who handle this.

Yes, this requires some legwork on the part of the racer.

Evan

[Lew Silverman]

Originally Posted by Evan Smith

Lew,

It is not the responsibility of the manufacturer to send in the specs for all new cars. They have better things to do these days, like figuring out how to keep afloat. If a racer requests that a combination be submitted, then the manufacturer will do it. There are people at Ford, GM, and Dodge who handle this.

Yes, this requires some legwork on the part of the racer.

Evan

Very well put, Evan!

Looking at the total output of each of the manufacturers, it seems strange that for 2012 there are only 3 platforms that have been approved for Stock Class (Cobra Jet, Drag Pak and Camaro SS). Putting all their eggs in one basket makes sense for the limited resources available, as you mentioned, but being from the old school "race on Sunday - sell on Monday" gang, I wonder how many folks are buying V6 GT's because of the success of the Cobra Jet.

More work for me in finding out how to classify the rest of the pack!

Lew

[Evan Smith]

Lew,

Thanks, the V-6 Mustang is the base model and is not a GT. The GT has a 5.0 and 412 hp. I would venture that Ford realizes the importance of its Cobra Jet program and the attention is brings to Ford. I believe it does create a buzz for Ford and gets people interested in Ford products. Much in the same way (albeit on a smaller scale) that John Ford does or the Fusion does in NASCAR. The CJs have received lots of ink in the enthusiast magazines, and that helps, drive people to buy cars and parts from Ford Racing, too.

"Win on Sunday, sell on Monday," is a phrase from the old days and it is not the old days any more. But the idea of being out there on track and involved in racing does spike the interest in racers and enthusiasts and that is what Ford and the other involved manufacturers are after.

Evan

[BlueOval Ralph]

Evan this is incorrect as far as how Ford did it!!!

Old cars were rated differently (gross hp) from the factory with no engine accessories and free-flowing exhaust—new engines are rated with everything in place, including emission controls.

The way Ford did it was there were 3 Horsepower ratings.

A curve was no accessorys (fan, alt, water pump and open exhaust)
B curve was some accessorys (somewhere in between A curve and C curve)
C curve was with Fan, waterpump, alt and exhaust back pressure as installed in vehicle. This was the factory published rating.
all the above were corrected to SAE J 607 which was ans is 29.92 baro, 60 degrees carb air.

Mose Noland could give you more of the details if he remebers

Originally Posted by Evan Smith

You don't see regular production cars from Chevy, Dodge or Ford, because they would be terrible combinations. Old cars were rated differently (gross hp) from the factory with no engine accessories and free-flowing exhaust—new engines are rated with everything in place, including emission controls.

The real problem is that it is much harder to get 200-250 hp out of (non-supercharged) new cars once built for Stock. The new Boss 302 is rated at 444 hp and I have seen about 390-400 rwhp on a Dynojet chassis dyno. These cars will run 12.0s at 113 mph with sticky rear tires. We tested a 1970 454 LS-6 Chevelle (auto), factory rated at 450, and it was a good-running example, not a turd. It made 296 rwhp (I would guess it would have made 330-350 rwhp with a stick). I don't remember the torque numbers, but the BBC did make loads of torque.

Once modified for Stock Eliminator, you now have equal (or close to equal) drivetrain, suspension, the same advantages in regards to head mods (valve job), and camshaft, exhaust, etc. You can use all new parts for the 454, just like the 302 (or Chevy LS or Dodge equivalent). They are essentially rated the same, yet the Boss gives up 152 cubic inches!

I would guess that a properly built 454 LS-6 or ZL-1 427 Chevy (or 426 Hemi) makes upwards of 680-700 hp. Could a 302 equal that? Remember, this engine is already making 1.47 hp per cube! This is not a Ford thing, as I'm sure same holds true for the 426 hp Camaro and the 425 hp Dodge.

At 700 hp a 454 is making 1.54 hp per cube
At 700 hp a 302 is making 2.31 hp per cube