True meaning - Page 2

Jim Wahl · 07-23-2008, 04:51 PM

Woah! Bruce,
Slow down, take a break. Maybe you should get some sleep. You have taken poor 'ol Art way out of context.
He and I are all for Class racers and Class winners, that is the whole point of our posts! But we are not a bunch of "sheeple" feeling comfortable just following yours and NHRA's dictations without any explanation. The rule the way it was sent to NHRA I could understand, but NHRA's extreme interpretation is not acceptable to me and many others. It is my right to voice my opinion, that is what makes this site and others like it great. If you plan on squashing everyone who doesn't agree with you then you will only arguing with yourself before very long. I was a moderator on LS1.com for a few years and I found you must have an open mind and take a break every now and then. Now might be the time for you to do just that. Jim

Bruce Noland · 07-23-2008, 05:47 PM

Jim,
At my age I am one of the most well-rested guys on this site.

I took nothing out of context - Art's post was very specific. My post stands.

Now you have resulted to personal remarks. I have no dictates and I'm certainly not in concert with nhra so I think you are taking your anger out on me and others. Your scortched earth tactics have failed and you certainly haven't gained any sympathy for your cause.

Now go turn the wick up on your steamer and come ready to race at Indy. I hope you and Art are planning to come to Indy this year. It would be shame if you pulled a no show after all this BS.

Jeff Lee · 07-23-2008, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by art leong

In the first place. The way the eliminator was worded was "class winners and quailified losers"
Not quaified losers then class winners.
A bunch of whining pansies were jealous because they couldn't race. And got the rule changed.
Years ago if you didn't win class you went home. The racers then were winners not whiners. If you didn't win class you didn't get to race.
But now a bunch of you seem to think its your God given right to race.
I want to THANK you for doing your best to RUIN the sport I grew up with.
__________________

Nowhere does it mention any racer by name. Once again, when taken personally, these discussions are meaningless. It then turns into a playground brawl and the one with the loudest keyboard seems to win.
The focus allways needs to remain the same; not what's good for me, what is good for the sport?
NHRA Drag racing is a sport which involves more diversification in "equipment" than any other sport. Almost anything can, and does, race. With such diversification, there is NO WAY NHRA can mandate how many cars must be in attendance in order for a class win to be "legit". That means NHRA can not dictate a single for class win is unacceptable any more than they can say it takes 10 participants to qualify a winner.
Having only the fastest qualified field insures a limited amount of entries. Then the rule book will be updated yearly only to reflect the rules for the trick of the year entry.
I'm for class winners being "placed" (NHRA's wording) into the eliminator first, furthest under or qualified vehicles, second.
I'm for anything that creates more heads-up runs. This is what seperates us from bracket racing. If it takes 1# weight breaks, combining transmissions, or combining classes, so be it. Show me a race won by a driver that needed to win 3 heads-up runs and I'll show you a real racer.
I suspect some of the traveling "pro's", which don't seem to be very competitive against the index they run against, are the biggest proponents of this movement. Seems the heads-up runs are the thorn in their side.

Alan Roehrich · 07-23-2008, 06:21 PM

I think it was Clark Holroyd that won 2-3 heads up runs in A/SA on his way to the National Event win a year or so ago.

IF you are speaking about Biondo, Bertozzi, Fletcher, or Rampy, (or others like them, for that matter) when you say "professional racers", they aren't often ducking heads up runs. I know for a fact Bertozzi takes his heads up wins and losses like a man. He beat Merrill Schrimscher last year on a heads up, and did not gloat, and he lost to us heads up this year, and came by the trailer and offered a handshake and a "well done". I suspect the same of the other three as well, since I've seen nothing less sportsmanlike on their part. I know before Anthony Fetch put us out, he had just won a heads up race as well. Most of those guys, IF they are "playing the ladder" are looking FOR a heads up they think they can win, and looking for the bye. Most of them have a pretty fast competitive car, for the simple reason is that it is very hard to win when you have to worry about ducking a heads up run. IF that becomes a big concern, it makes life pretty hard.

I agree, more heads up races is better for the eliminator. However, I fail to see how placing class winners who single for their win at 0.501 under is going to generate more heads up runs in the eliminator. They sure aren't going to have a heads up run in the eliminator after they SINGLE for their class win.

Further, IF the vote came during a debate for a two tenth reduction in the indexes, and the vote was in favor of the index reduction, then it was pretty much in favor of not letting anyone single for the win at what now amounts to 0.5 under (since what now amounts to 0.5 under would only be 0.3 under).

MAYBE limiting the field to the 128 fastest cars will reduce the field, and maybe it won't. There will be a different group that will have less chance of making the field. As it stood before the rule change, you have the people who can run 1.0 under in the heat pretty easy, those who gamble they can run about .85 under and get in the top 112 or so, and those who figure they can single for class just barely faster than 0.5 under. AFTER the rule change, you'll have more people who are more encouraged to gamble that .75-.85 under might get them in, and the few that counted on 0.5 under and a single, and can't run much faster, will stay home. Or work on their car and hope. In any event, we probably won't have a good sample this year, since those who really couldn't afford to gamble a year or two ago are even less able to afford it, and more likely to stay home.

Bruce Noland · 07-23-2008, 07:27 PM

Jeff,
Just in case you misread my post, my comment about personal remarks was directed to Jim.

Jim Wahl · 07-23-2008, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Noland

Jim,
At my age I am one of the most well-rested guys on this site.

I took nothing out of context - Art's post was very specific. My post stands.

Now you have resulted to personal remarks. I have no dictates and I'm certainly not in concert with nhra so I think you are taking your anger out on me and others. Your scortched earth tactics have failed and you certainly haven't gained any sympathy for your cause.

Now go turn the wick up on your steamer and come ready to race at Indy. I hope you and Art are planning to come to Indy this year. It would be shame if you pulled a no show after all this BS.

Bruce,
I'm not sure who's posts you have been reading but I have enlisted none of the "tactics" you accuse me of. No "personal" remarks there. As for sympathy, that's not what I was looking for. The facts were all I wanted, and I found them as far as I am concerned. Now I can tell you for sure I will not be at Indy this year and I'm pretty sure Art will not either. I have not been to Indy since 1990 where I won class after two heads up runs. I also was #1 qualifier for 3 days until the last qualifier. I think I wound up 3rd that year. How about you Bruce, are you going to Indy this year? I'll be rooting for you.

Finally, I'm not sure what makes you think you have to use such rude and nasty remarks to get your point across. I feel sorry for you if that is the only way you think you can get your point across. You are probably one of the worst if not THE worst violators in that respect on this forum. Maybe it's because you are the moderator and you feel you have the right to belittle other posters? That isn't a moderators job.I think I will suggest to Ken that he review your posts and see what he thinks. I don't think if I were he that I would want someone who is representing my site speaking to other posters that way. Your last paragraph of your last post is a good example. Good luck at Indy! Jim

Bill Hawk · 07-23-2008, 07:56 PM

I agree with Bruce Noland, i dont think he took anything out of context. He told it the way it is. Alot of guys spend ALOT of money and hours working on there cars, then they come on here and read all the BS from all the whiners because they think its easier to complain then work on there cars. Ill say it just like he did "turn the wick up on your steamers and run with the big dogs OR stay at home and sit on the porch with the puppies and whiners" NHRA class racing is about performance NOT whining. Class eliminations in S/SS have always been based on performance and it should stay that way.

Bill Hawk

Urraco · 07-23-2008, 07:56 PM

I agree with Art 100%. If you dont win class you should be in the trailer, period.

Bruce Noland · 07-23-2008, 08:06 PM

Jim,
You are behaving like a sore loser.

You don't understand all of the meanings of sympathy:
Websters first three definitions of sympathy,
1.) samness of feeling
2.) mutual liking or understanding
3.) the ability to share another's ideas, emotions etc.

You also misjudge my intentions for posting a counter balance to all of your posts.

Thanks Bill.

Jim Wahl · 07-23-2008, 08:26 PM

Bill,
I hope you weren't calling me a whiner, I am pretty sure that when I "turn up the wick" I can run with you index to index or record to record just about any old day.Sorry, I hate resort that kind of juvenile discourse but you sort of called me out.

Bruce,
I don't think you left much room for interpretation in what you posted. I'm still not looking for any sympathy (now that I know what the word means). I haven't lost anything at all. As of this moment I have 34 emails thanking me for trying to find out how this rule came about, that's not counting the people posting here. How many did you get?

Oh and thanks for the dictionary lesson. I'm sure it will come in handy. You never did say, are you going to Indy? Jim

07-23-2008, 04:51 PM	#11
Jim Wahl Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Central Florida Posts: 5,842 Likes: 631 Liked 674 Times in 122 Posts	Re: True meaning Woah! Bruce, Slow down, take a break. Maybe you should get some sleep. You have taken poor 'ol Art way out of context. He and I are all for Class racers and Class winners, that is the whole point of our posts! But we are not a bunch of "sheeple" feeling comfortable just following yours and NHRA's dictations without any explanation. The rule the way it was sent to NHRA I could understand, but NHRA's extreme interpretation is not acceptable to me and many others. It is my right to voice my opinion, that is what makes this site and others like it great. If you plan on squashing everyone who doesn't agree with you then you will only arguing with yourself before very long. I was a moderator on LS1.com for a few years and I found you must have an open mind and take a break every now and then. Now might be the time for you to do just that. Jim __________________ Jim Wahl....NHRA #2239 S/SS - IHRA # 8 Stock, D2 Stock Champion (forever I guess) 2019 Baby Gators Stock Champion 2009 D2 National Open Stock Champion 1981 D2 West Palm Beach LDRS SS Runner Up Past President, Southern Stock / Super Stock Association.

07-23-2008, 05:47 PM	#12
Bruce Noland VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,855 Likes: 83 Liked 444 Times in 145 Posts	Re: True meaning Jim, At my age I am one of the most well-rested guys on this site. I took nothing out of context - Art's post was very specific. My post stands. Now you have resulted to personal remarks. I have no dictates and I'm certainly not in concert with nhra so I think you are taking your anger out on me and others. Your scortched earth tactics have failed and you certainly haven't gained any sympathy for your cause. Now go turn the wick up on your steamer and come ready to race at Indy. I hope you and Art are planning to come to Indy this year. It would be shame if you pulled a no show after all this BS. __________________ Bruce Noland 1788 STK

07-23-2008, 06:21 PM	#14
Alan Roehrich VIP Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Murfreesboro TN Posts: 4,934 Likes: 1,016 Liked 1,093 Times in 286 Posts	Re: True meaning I think it was Clark Holroyd that won 2-3 heads up runs in A/SA on his way to the National Event win a year or so ago. IF you are speaking about Biondo, Bertozzi, Fletcher, or Rampy, (or others like them, for that matter) when you say "professional racers", they aren't often ducking heads up runs. I know for a fact Bertozzi takes his heads up wins and losses like a man. He beat Merrill Schrimscher last year on a heads up, and did not gloat, and he lost to us heads up this year, and came by the trailer and offered a handshake and a "well done". I suspect the same of the other three as well, since I've seen nothing less sportsmanlike on their part. I know before Anthony Fetch put us out, he had just won a heads up race as well. Most of those guys, IF they are "playing the ladder" are looking FOR a heads up they think they can win, and looking for the bye. Most of them have a pretty fast competitive car, for the simple reason is that it is very hard to win when you have to worry about ducking a heads up run. IF that becomes a big concern, it makes life pretty hard. I agree, more heads up races is better for the eliminator. However, I fail to see how placing class winners who single for their win at 0.501 under is going to generate more heads up runs in the eliminator. They sure aren't going to have a heads up run in the eliminator after they SINGLE for their class win. Further, IF the vote came during a debate for a two tenth reduction in the indexes, and the vote was in favor of the index reduction, then it was pretty much in favor of not letting anyone single for the win at what now amounts to 0.5 under (since what now amounts to 0.5 under would only be 0.3 under). MAYBE limiting the field to the 128 fastest cars will reduce the field, and maybe it won't. There will be a different group that will have less chance of making the field. As it stood before the rule change, you have the people who can run 1.0 under in the heat pretty easy, those who gamble they can run about .85 under and get in the top 112 or so, and those who figure they can single for class just barely faster than 0.5 under. AFTER the rule change, you'll have more people who are more encouraged to gamble that .75-.85 under might get them in, and the few that counted on 0.5 under and a single, and can't run much faster, will stay home. Or work on their car and hope. In any event, we probably won't have a good sample this year, since those who really couldn't afford to gamble a year or two ago are even less able to afford it, and more likely to stay home. __________________ Alan Roehrich 212A G/S

07-23-2008, 07:27 PM	#15
Bruce Noland VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,855 Likes: 83 Liked 444 Times in 145 Posts	Re: True meaning Jeff, Just in case you misread my post, my comment about personal remarks was directed to Jim. __________________ Bruce Noland 1788 STK Last edited by Bruce Noland; 07-23-2008 at 07:43 PM.

07-23-2008, 07:56 PM	#17
Bill Hawk Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: manassas va Posts: 33 Likes: 0 Liked 20 Times in 6 Posts	Re: True meaning I agree with Bruce Noland, i dont think he took anything out of context. He told it the way it is. Alot of guys spend ALOT of money and hours working on there cars, then they come on here and read all the BS from all the whiners because they think its easier to complain then work on there cars. Ill say it just like he did "turn the wick up on your steamers and run with the big dogs OR stay at home and sit on the porch with the puppies and whiners" NHRA class racing is about performance NOT whining. Class eliminations in S/SS have always been based on performance and it should stay that way. Bill Hawk __________________ Bill Hawk 1352 STK

07-23-2008, 07:56 PM	#18
Urraco Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Phoenix Posts: 66 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: True meaning I agree with Art 100%. If you dont win class you should be in the trailer, period.

07-23-2008, 08:06 PM	#19
Bruce Noland VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,855 Likes: 83 Liked 444 Times in 145 Posts	Re: True meaning Jim, You are behaving like a sore loser. You don't understand all of the meanings of sympathy: Websters first three definitions of sympathy, 1.) samness of feeling 2.) mutual liking or understanding 3.) the ability to share another's ideas, emotions etc. You also misjudge my intentions for posting a counter balance to all of your posts. Thanks Bill. __________________ Bruce Noland 1788 STK

07-23-2008, 08:26 PM	#20
Jim Wahl Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Central Florida Posts: 5,842 Likes: 631 Liked 674 Times in 122 Posts	Re: True meaning Bill, I hope you weren't calling me a whiner, I am pretty sure that when I "turn up the wick" I can run with you index to index or record to record just about any old day.Sorry, I hate resort that kind of juvenile discourse but you sort of called me out. Bruce, I don't think you left much room for interpretation in what you posted. I'm still not looking for any sympathy (now that I know what the word means). I haven't lost anything at all. As of this moment I have 34 emails thanking me for trying to find out how this rule came about, that's not counting the people posting here. How many did you get? Oh and thanks for the dictionary lesson. I'm sure it will come in handy. You never did say, are you going to Indy? Jim __________________ Jim Wahl....NHRA #2239 S/SS - IHRA # 8 Stock, D2 Stock Champion (forever I guess) 2019 Baby Gators Stock Champion 2009 D2 National Open Stock Champion 1981 D2 West Palm Beach LDRS SS Runner Up Past President, Southern Stock / Super Stock Association. Last edited by Jim Wahl; 07-23-2008 at 08:30 PM.