GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show

[Mike Carr]

Originally Posted by NBD MGT

It seems like this is what's really got everyone pissed off.

Since everyone seems to agree that all stockers make more HP than they are rated at, there is no basis to complain about bogus numbers right?

I keep hearing complaints of new car dominance but if that's the case why do older cars hold almost all of the national records?

Out of all the NHRA events this past summer, what is the breakdown of wins by new cars vs. older cars? What's the breakdown of top-10 qualifiers, old vs. new?

Also wondering whether anyone actually knows how many people raced in Stock in 2008 (when all the supposed troubles began) and how many do now?

Just trying to get this because I am newly interested in NHRA racing so I'm "walking in the door today", so to speak, and If I started to race it'd be with a car that was produced during my lifetime.

~the factory HP rating is used for factoring puprposes only. Factory shipping weight, divided by HP (either factory or NHRA) = your natural class you can run. Example: 1967 Camaro, with a 396 cid, 325 hp motor and TH-350 transmision; shipping weight is 3,256 pounds. 3,256 divided by 325 = 10.01, making the car an E/SA. By rule, a car can add/subtract weight to run F/SA or D/SA. NHRA still has this motor at 325, as on-track performance has not dictated a change. Conversely, I think every new combination from Ford and Dodge has been hit by NHRA; the big-blower COPO (S/S-only has been also, in it's first two months, and the 427 cid naturally aspirated one will get a hit soon as part of the Year End adjustments). Yet, some cars, even receiving LARGE amounts of HP from NHRA, can still qualify near the top of the sheets. The 5.7 DragPak has been hit 110+ hp, from F/SA (305 hp) up to CC/SA (417), and can still qualify in the top 10. Find any other car that has got that much and still qualify like that in Stock. So, yes, that particular car was BOGUS.

A better example of technology (I wrote this in a story in Sept 2010):
The 5.9 360 cid Mopar engine in the late 1970's Aspen/Volare's is rated 289, by NHRA. A fast one of these will run 11.20's in H/SA (Jim Wahl in Florida has one). Now, compare Jeff Tueton's 2009 5.9 360 in a DragPak. It has a 1000 cfm throttle body, plastic intake, better flowing heads, .490" roller cam, and has run 10.52 in G/SA, while running at H weight , and was rated at the time at 275!!!. NHRA should have looked at the specs and realized that a FAR superior engine should NOT be rated FOURTEEN HP LESS!!! And oh yeah, Jeff's DP at the time got to weigh one hundred and fifty four (154) pounds LESS than Jim's Aspen. Can you say "bring a tank to a water pistol fight"?

If that doesn't illustrate the joke of these new cars, even to a newbie, nothing will.

~the older cars can set the record anytime they want to--they just choose not to. Not everyone wants to spend 5-6 hours tearing the motor down having it inspected, and put back together. I did it once, in 2004, to set a record which was worth points, back then, in IHRA. I wouldn't do it without incentive now, if I were still racing. Trust me, if the racers so desired, every record from AAA/SA to E/SA would have a 2008 and newer car as the record holder (and lower with some of the 281 Mustangs in H-I/SA).

~there have been a few new cars win races; John Calvert won in the first race ever by the then-new CJ's in 2009; Jeff Tueton won Indy last year in a DP, Charlie Fitzsimmons (?)) won G-ville this year. The new CJ/DP/COPO cars make up, probably, less than 10% of the total cars in Stock. To the uneducated, this may not seem like such a big deal. Just realize, though-- if you get to the semifinals at Indy in your CC/SA-A/SA older Camaro/Cuda/Mustang, and you race a new car in a heads-up run, you have NO CHANCE to win, unless the new car redlights/breaks. If the older cars had a CHANCE at winning a run such as that, I think many would feel a little better about it.

~Car counts are down a bit since 2008 (would have to go back and do an average), and down a lot since the early 2000's when I started. It's not all the new cars, by any means. Economy, cost of going racing, gas/tolls, general displeasure with NHRA/IHRA overall, etc. But having the new cars, putting many racers into the distinct possibility of getting their ___ kicked in a heads-up run, with a 5% chance of winning, doesn't appeal to many either. I've seen quite a few good CC to E/SA cars go up for sale the past three years. Coincidence?

~Not sure how old you are. If you're young(er), like me (I turned thirty three a month ago), your choice of car is, basically, a new factory racecar (unless you build a Cobalt or other modern FWD car). Figure on spending over $100,000 to get into the game (or buy a street model, buy the parts to convert it into a clone car, and maybe save a few bucks). I would reccomen buying a ready-to-go racecar vs building one. Yes, you won't get the satisfaction of building it, but it'll be cheaper and less headaches in the long run.

Here is another exerpt from an article I wrote in 2010, just after Indy that year.

"The following are the best runs of that year for C, D, E and G/SA, NHRA and IHRA both, for the past two seasons. All HP as of the time the run was made.

Class Name Car Cid/HP ET Race
NHRA 2008
C/SA Cody Lane, '96 Corvette 350/330 10.386 Qualifying Woodburn D-6 race
D/SA Scott Burton, '71 Formula 455/340 10.513 Q Earlville Iowa, September
E/SA Ken Kopecky, '71 Demon 340/314 10.664 Q Dutch Classic Nat'l Open October
G/SA Jim Marshall, '81 Corvette 350/285 10.933 Q Dutch Classic NO

IHRA 2008
C/SA Jim Boudreau, '69 Camaro 396/375 10.430 Q Epping NA Nat'ls September
D/SA Leon Philpot, '71 Corvette 454/365 10.770 D4-6 Baton Rouge LA
E/SA Jim Kaekel, '70 Olds 442 455 11.001 D5-5 Osceola IN September
G/SA JIm Marshall '81 Corvette 350/285 10.933 Q World Finals October


NHRA 2009
C/SA Jim Conte, '69 Mustang 428/383 10.335 Rd 5, D1-5, Cecil County August
D/SA Brad VanLant, '71 Duster 340/314 10.559 Q Earlville D5-6 September
E/SA Brad Van Lant " " " " 10.622 Q KCIR Nat'l Open October
G/SA Jim Marshall 10.933 Q D2-6 Renolyds GA October

IHRA 2009
C/SA Jim Boudreau, '69 Camaro 396/375 10.199 Q D1-7 Epping September
D/SA Leon Philpot, '71 Corvette 454/365 10.779 Rd 1 D4-4 Baton Rouge
E/SA Jerry Davis, '71 Duster 340/314 10.833 Q Texas Nationals
G/SA Jim Marshall '81 Corvette 350/285 10.905 Q Canadian Nationals

All these runs were made by really good cars, in pretty good air, by people who have had them, beat on them, and know them pretty well, for quite a while.


Now, let's look at some of the runs from this past weekend at Indy.

C/SA Dempsey Pendarvis, '09 Challenger 5.7 315 Rd 1 US Nat'ls 9.797
D/SA Irvin Johns, '09 Challenger 5.7 315 Rd 1 US Nat'ls 9.983
E/SA Carey Bales, '09 Challenger 5.7 315 Rd 1 US Nat'ls 10.000
G/SA Jeff Tueton, '09 Challenger 5.9 275 Rd 1 US Nat'ls 10.529 (at H/SA weight, a140 pounds or so heavy)

These cars, having been on the track for a year or less, outran a lot of really good cars by anywhere from FOUR TO SIX TENTHS, using the new cars Indy runs compared to the old cars best runs, in good air. Heads-up at the same race at Indy, some new cars were outrunning really good old cars by as much as EIGHT TENTHS. Just imagine how fast they, along with the new Mustangs combos, will be with more track time, testing, etc. And the 3.25% horsepower that the 5.7, 5.9 Mopars and the Mustang combination Chris Holbrook has will receive tomorrow will barely make a dent in the armor. And all from cars you could not get from a dealer."

Also, I wrote this for ClassRacer last year. Better explains how cars are classified, and re-factored based on performance:
http://classracer.com/classes.html

[Mike Carr]

Also, until a few years ago, all Stockers were street-cars. Able to be licensed, insured and registered for street use, emissions legal, etc. Any car not in that theme (race Hemi's, AMX, Thunderbolt and factory purpose-built racecars) were S/S-only. Not the case anymore. These F/X Stockers, you can not buy them from a local dealer (the only street Challenger is 4,200 pounds, with a 6.1 Hemi, and NOT accepted by NHRA for Stock Eliminator. You can not buy, from a dealer a 352/428 Mustang either, or the COPO version Camaros). The factory race cars are several hundred pounds lighter than their showroom cousins. Most of the versions you CAN buy from a dealer are not NHRA or IHRA-legal for Class Racing. So, if you're a young kid, like new cars, and want to run Stock, you have three options:

A) spend $100K on a new racecar, and then look for a street car;

B) buy a street car at $40K or so, and spend all the time and money (on top of the initial investment) to make your car legal with the accepted engine and stuff for Stock, take out several hundred pounds, correct body parts, etc; or

C) just take your new-generation street car and run local brackets and forget Class Racing all together.

[Michael Lyons]

I doubt any carburated stocker of the last 40 years could pass an emissions test, especially on leaded racing fuel.. lol
And aren't the AA, BB, CC classes basically for the newer factory cars? Maybe need a DD,EE huh?
Also why doesn't someone who just went out and paid somewhere between $105k and $250k for a stock eliminator car deserve to qualify top half?
And the big three need to continue to find ways to generate revenue or they will have to borrow more taxpayer money(lol) or several people will be out of work.
Hey NHRA racing is expensive, hell its $500-600 just to go to one of the closest LODRS points race. Its gotten beyond my wallets threshhold for pain, and I've invested several hundred thousand dollars over the past 20 years and taken several losses. But I have accepted that it is just beyond me now and I will run when I can, where I can and if I can. Sounds like several others here are just going to have to face the same reality. Its a rich mans game, they do not care that much, go big or go home isn't that what they say on the big tv at the races?. Theres always bracket racing, supporting your local track, and possibly reducing your stress and debt level. I wish everyone the best

[Charley Downing]

Jim ,ford and ford racing are basicly two different companys under one roof. They don't operate together. If ford is in bed with NHRA why is the drag pack and copo HP soft. You can't tell me all these company have nothing better to do them pay NHRA so they can have a soft HP rating. They have better places to spend money

[D.Johns]

These discussions can be entertaining. It is clear that it is subject that some feel very strong about. The only issue I have with the discussions is the name calling and painting everyone and everything with such a wide brush. It is not required or helpful for the cause.

[Stocker 2]

Most had accepted the fact that it costs $500-$600 just to race at an LODRS but that was part of racing Stock or SS. Now along with the cost of racing comes the chance of a heads up run against a newer bogus underrated factory racecar. In a heads up race against one of those cars it's not about who is the better driver, it's about who has the bigger checkbook. I'm sure any racer would be happy to run against a newer car if there was spot involved. That puts it all on the driver. But when a heads up run happens, the older cars do not stand a chance because of bogus factoring.

[Randall Klein]

"Also why doesn't someone who just went out and spent between $105K and $250K for a Stock Elim car deserve to qualify in the top half?"

Really??

I had to read that a half dozen times plus clean my glasses.

Wow

Plus I doubt these cars are adding to the corporate profits.

Visibility, PR, Good Will perhaps.

Full page ads in ND, official vehicles, continued Race sponsorship, signage in lieu of actual payola is where the quid pro quo is.....

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by Michael Lyons

Also why doesn't someone who just went out and paid somewhere between $105k and $250k for a stock eliminator car deserve to qualify top half?

Let me see if I've got this straight, you think that because you just spent $105-$250k on a race car you should be ENTITLED to qualify in the top of the field? That may be the lamest statement I've ever read on this site! Welcome to the 21st century mindset.
I can think of a couple of reasons why you SHOULDN'T qualify in the top half no matter how much money you've spent, no smarts, no talent and no work ethic.

[NBD MGT]

Originally Posted by Stocker 2

Most had accepted the fact that it costs $500-$600 just to race at an LODRS but that was part of racing Stock or SS. Now along with the cost of racing comes the chance of a heads up run against a newer bogus underrated factory racecar. In a heads up race against one of those cars it's not about who is the better driver, it's about who has the bigger checkbook. I'm sure any racer would be happy to run against a newer car if there was spot involved. That puts it all on the driver. But when a heads up run happens, the older cars do not stand a chance because of bogus factoring.

I still don't get how older cars are at a disadvantage in the classes below CC/S unless those cars were not able to run very far under the index in the first place . Or maybe the indexes were wrong to begin with?

I'm also confused about the horsepower ratings on some of the older combinations like the Cobra Jet 1968 Mustang. Did it really makes 335 horsepower?

I know my buddy's dad went to great trouble to find all the correct parts to build a 427/ 425 for his 1969 Nova Yenko clone. It had all factory parts in it including the camshaft. Even though there were ridges on the tops of the cylinders and some of the parts looked pretty bad it still made over 550 horsepower. So can it be said that that combination also has a bogus rating?

So far the only thing I see that makes sense as an argument against new cars is that they were not torn down and built up from the ground like some of the older cars and that they were not really intended for the street.


So that makes me wonder weather NHRA required cars to be street legal in the original days of stock eliminator and for that matter whether they allowed 14 inch tires and 4 links in super stock back then?

[442OLDS]

Originally Posted by D.Johns

These discussions can be entertaining.

You got that right.

Originally Posted by Michael Lyons

Also why doesn't someone who just went out and paid somewhere between $105k and $250k for a stock eliminator car deserve to qualify top half?

Look at the number 1 qualifier at Indy in Stock this year.I might be wrong,but I doubt there was between 105k and $250k in that vehicle.

A lot of the horsepower factors for the older cars/vehicles are just as wrong as the new cars.