New cars, old cars and horsepower ratings.

[treessavoy]

I think a better answer for the "old" cars would be to lower their weight until they were competitive again or lower weight and hp so they could stay in the same class.

Just a thought.

JimR

[Ed Wright]

Originally Posted by treessavoy

I think a better answer for the "old" cars would be to lower their weight until they were competitive again or lower weight and hp so they could stay in the same class.

Just a thought.

JimR

Or, just rate the new stuff realistically?

[Marvin Robinson]

Originally Posted by KRatcliff

I can never remember making tuning adjustments in the later rounds. We are talking the NHRA, right? They do allow dial changes in any rounds unlike your home track. And that is a moot point because your individual class changes would be for heads up matches.

All in all I cannot follow your logic.

I admitted earlier that these concersn were from my old bracket racer habits... at my old track, you qualified at 11:00am (it was not an all run bracket race, the 32 closest to their dial-ins ran for the money), and no changes to your dial were allowed. By 7:00pm, there might be a huge change in air/temp, etc, and you might need to adjust to hit your number. (Some would dial soft, but they usually were easy to make run under in eliminations when the air got better in the evening). This is not an issue, just pointing out that you can make a change on a computer car in just a minute or two with a laptop, or even get a tuning map from a friend or teammate and use it, while the same procedure in a carbureted car takes a lot more time... in today's NHRA S/SS, a different environment, not a factor.

[Jeff Lee]

Could we stay focused on the subject? Start a thread in tech about tunning your carbs or FI. This thread is supposed to revolve about ideas to keep the older cars in attendance.
Right, wrong or indifferent to NHRA adding the Super Cars, they are here to stay. I firmly believe (again, right or wrong, that's my opinion) NHRA doesn't want S/SS to go away, nor do I believe they want to see the "traditional" cars to fade away. I'm of the opinion NHRA is somewhat concerned about the top heaviness of the Super Cars and are open to debate amongst the S/SS committee to find a reasonable solution. As stated earlier, no solution is foolproof but I believe something can be worked out which will benefit many.
Logistically, I can't see any way NHRA would want to ad another class such as Stock GT to park, much less police.
I believe the factories are behind seeing more heads up runs and do not like the combo races based on my own conversations and also hearsay.
All issues combined can be resolved with combining sticks and autos & lowering the HP of the older vehicles. Things like Stick or auto HP standards can be worked out (those I've spoken to & myself don't care which HP is used or split the difference) and a 5% drop in HP would find a lot of cars approximately 150#'s lighter.
To summarize, the face of Stock doesn't change with HP changes. It's easy & across the board.
Combining sticks and autos leads to more heads up runs and most likely an increase in competition and less lifting.
For it or against it, let your representatives know your thoughts.

[john corcoran jr]

Marvin Marvin Marvin,
You are forcing me to respond to this. ASAP and NHRA are mutually exclusive terms not to be used in the same sentence EVER. We do have a racer and NHRA committee. It is called the SRAC. You Division 3 rep. is Jeff Taylor, you could always voice your concerns with him or NHRA directly with your Div. 3 NHRA contacts.
In Point 1A, who is going to do the legwork on that project? The Classification guide goes back to 1955. NHRA is not going to spend that kind of time or money on that. It would be easier to police the new cars than to review every possible combo.
In Point 2 you want FI cars in their own classes but in Point 4 you say more classes will dilute the category. Please make up my mind for me.
On Point 2A we actually agree, supercharged cars shouls be in their own class, just like in Comp. eliminator.
Point 3, why? If you are taking the same amount off of each index, all it does is changes the number on paper. Indexes have been softened and then later dropped and the world keeps turning. The .8-1.2 under used to be 1.2-1.5 under, it really doesn't change the price of VP fuel does it?
Theoretically with all of the component upgrades allowed ( unlimited cam duration, unlimited spring pressure, light weight brakes, fuel cells, 1000 gal./ hr fuel pumps) every active combo should come up for review in the AHFS. Hmmmm, something is wrong, that hasn't happened yet.
Here is my two cents:
1. Get rid of the fastest 128 car rule for qualifying. Let the class winners seed the field and then fill in the remainder with the fastest againt their index. Just like it used to be. Foster creativity and let people scour the Classification Guide instead of competing with cubic money. Then the latest trick car of the week club can run each other hard enough to win class to get in the field and sort out the HP factors quicker.
2. The easy answer is to split the carb and FI cars, but what about the FI racers that have their factors set realistically? Then they are the ones getting pounded by the new cars. My idea would be to put the new cars in their own classes until the HP factors are settled. Use something like the rule in Pro Stock, current year to 3-5 year old cars. After that, the go in the regular classes with everone else. You aren't creating a whole bunch of new classes because I don't see the Big 3 making and 15 or 20lb/hp cars any time soon. You can still have a Factory Shootout to showcase the new stuff, it just won't be heads-up.


P.S. Marv, I will be out visiting Alex on Friday. Maybe we can get together and settle up for the dancers, escorts, and adult beverages from the Indy trip.
Thanks,
John
P.P.S. It's a good thing your wife doesn't read these posts.

[Marvin Robinson]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

Could we stay focused on the subject? Start a thread in tech about tunning your carbs or FI. This thread is supposed to revolve about ideas to keep the older cars in attendance.
Right, wrong or indifferent to NHRA adding the Super Cars, they are here to stay. I firmly believe (again, right or wrong, that's my opinion) NHRA doesn't want S/SS to go away, nor do I believe they want to see the "traditional" cars to fade away. I'm of the opinion NHRA is somewhat concerned about the top heaviness of the Super Cars and are open to debate amongst the S/SS committee to find a reasonable solution. As stated earlier, no solution is foolproof but I believe something can be worked out which will benefit many.
Logistically, I can't see any way NHRA would want to ad another class such as Stock GT to park, much less police.
I believe the factories are behind seeing more heads up runs and do not like the combo races based on my own conversations and also hearsay.
All issues combined can be resolved with combining sticks and autos & lowering the HP of the older vehicles. Things like Stick or auto HP standards can be worked out (those I've spoken to & myself don't care which HP is used or split the difference) and a 5% drop in HP would find a lot of cars approximately 150#'s lighter.
To summarize, the face of Stock doesn't change with HP changes. It's easy & across the board.
Combining sticks and autos leads to more heads up runs and most likely an increase in competition and less lifting.
For it or against it, let your representatives know your thoughts.

Jeff,

Why tamper with the maybe 4000+ combos that the older cars represent, just change the factors on the new cars, and you only have to deal with about 25-30 combos. Limiting the factory engine combo game would help.... some of those Ford combos are actually factory GT/Stock cars already (a 352 or 428 Mustang???). Making the adjustments where the problem is, is the way to go

[M Brand 505B]

To stay on point....

All "production" cars post 2008 need to have their own class designations. When the fastest pre 2008 cars are being outran by 0.20+ there is an issue!

Everyone who has a stocker or superstocker should be able to somewhat agree that having the big three making production race cars is good for the sport. But with the HP ratings they've been given its unfair for us to compete against them on a heads up basis.

[Marvin Robinson]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee

Could we stay focused on the subject? Start a thread in tech about tunning your carbs or FI. This thread is supposed to revolve about ideas to keep the older cars in attendance.
Right, wrong or indifferent to NHRA adding the Super Cars, they are here to stay. I firmly believe (again, right or wrong, that's my opinion) NHRA doesn't want S/SS to go away, nor do I believe they want to see the "traditional" cars to fade away. I'm of the opinion NHRA is somewhat concerned about the top heaviness of the Super Cars and are open to debate amongst the S/SS committee to find a reasonable solution. As stated earlier, no solution is foolproof but I believe something can be worked out which will benefit many.
Logistically, I can't see any way NHRA would want to ad another class such as Stock GT to park, much less police.
I believe the factories are behind seeing more heads up runs and do not like the combo races based on my own conversations and also hearsay.
All issues combined can be resolved with combining sticks and autos & lowering the HP of the older vehicles. Things like Stick or auto HP standards can be worked out (those I've spoken to & myself don't care which HP is used or split the difference) and a 5% drop in HP would find a lot of cars approximately 150#'s lighter.
To summarize, the face of Stock doesn't change with HP changes. It's easy & across the board.
Combining sticks and autos leads to more heads up runs and most likely an increase in competition and less lifting.
For it or against it, let your representatives know your thoughts.

Jeff, I mostly agree, but I think adding HP to the newer cars is a far simpler, easier and fair way to balance, compared to making changes to hundreds of older cars (although i would LOVE to take wt out of my F/SA). It might work if the percentage was applied universally to all older cars, but that might not be fair. Combining sticks/autos together would make for larger classes in runoffs, a good idea if the proper adjustments are made for the two... maybe we can get a consensus on that and move forward with it. How effectively can this be worked thru the current committee(s), or do we need to develop a new forum to get the relevant parties working together?

[Marvin Robinson]

Originally Posted by M Brand 505B

To stay on point....

All "production" cars post 2008 need to have their own class designations. When the fastest pre 2008 cars are being outran by 0.20+ there is an issue!

Everyone who has a stocker or superstocker should be able to somewhat agree that having the big three making production race cars is good for the sport. But with the HP ratings they've been given its unfair for us to compete against them on a heads up basis.

AMEN... we keep coming to the same conclusion. The BIG problem is the HP factor for the newer cars.

[Jeff Lee]

Originally Posted by Marvin Robinson

Jeff,

Why tamper with the maybe 4000+ combos that the older cars represent, just change the factors on the new cars, and you only have to deal with about 25-30 combos. Limiting the factory engine combo game would help.... some of those Ford combos are actually factory GT/Stock cars already (a 352 or 428 Mustang???). Making the adjustments where the problem is, is the way to go

As I stated, NHRA is not going to step on the toes of the OEM and the new Super Cars. Again, that is my opinion. Like it or not, the AHFS is the platform these cars were built on and approved by NHRA. The OEM's submitted some HP figures and NHRA rejected some and negotiated on the others. I can't see NHRA doing anything on these cars other than allowing the AHFS to do it's job.
A keystroke will reduce the HP on the older cars. Me, personally, it wouldn't matter what defines "older" cars. I mentioned previously 1992 (Pre-LT-1 SBC) but if 2008 (First Drag-Paks), fine. Either 1992 or 2008 seems reasonable to me.