Best B.O.P. stock and super stockers of all time

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by oldskool

There were some MAJOR changes for Pontiac, with the introduction of the '67 models. Many of these changes would affect Pontiac drag racing for many years to come, even to this day.

(1) The 1st 400 cube engine.

(2) The 1st 428 cube engine.

(3) The 1st Firebird.

(4) The 1st TH400 in a GTO.

(5) The 1st Q-jet carb on a Pontiac V8.

As I've mentioned in other threads, I haven't been able to find pics, or other evidence, of large numbers of '67 GTO drag cars. I think Mark posted pics of some.

But, I've found several pics of '67 Bird drag cars from the early years. There were probably lots of others, around the country.

Because the 428 was available only in the big cars, there were apparently very few 428 powered cars on the tracks. I suppose that a '69 GP was about the sportiest body a 428 ever came in.

Because of the current GT rules, in Super Stock, the 428 is now used in several strong GT cars. If somebody wanted to run a '67 428 powered Stocker, IMO, it could possibly be made competitive, with it's current 350hp factor.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

2 of the '67 Bird Stockers I'll mention have done real well running a 400, with a current 338hp factor.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

Therefore, at only 12hp higher, the 350hp rated '67 428 just MIGHT be competitive. Yes, the big '67 Pontiacs are heavy. BUT, there have been quite a few heavy cars & wagons that were very competitive.

NHRA allows the 428 to use the same 670 heads, with the same 65cc chamber size as the '67 400.

One indication that nobody has tried to run a serious 428 powered Stocker, in recent years, is the fact that NHRA does not list any legal replacement pistons for it.

After looking at the weight of possible '67 428 powered Stockers, I was surprised to see that several models would have a minimum weight, with driver, of less than 4000 lbs. That's not too much heavier than some later GTO's & 2nd gen Birds.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2000

So, looks to me like the only thing that might slow the big cars down is that they produce more wind resistance. Don't know how much that would slow a car down, as compared to a '67 Bird body, with exactly the same engine.

But all this is just my thoughts. Doubt anybody will ever build a '67 428 powered Stocker.

But based on the links you posted the 428 has a lower CR from Pontiac than the 400 and has to run a thicker head gasket .050" verses the 400's .042". Hard to say about other specs as the 428 is lacking some data.


Let me just add that the difference in head gasket is only 2 cc's.

The 400 ci 10.75:1 should have a total volume of 84.3 cc's

The 428 ci 10.5:1 should have a total volume of 92.2 cc's


Stan

[Mark Yacavone]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

But based on the links you posted the 428 has a lower CR from Pontiac than the 400 and has to run a thicker head gasket .050" verses the 400's .042". Hard to say about other specs as the 428 is lacking some data.


Let me just add that the difference in head gasket is only 2 cc's.

The 400 ci 10.75:1 should have a total volume of 84.3 cc's

The 428 ci 10.5:1 should have a total volume of 92.2 cc's


Stan

Looks like this:

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

Looks like this:

Yeah, the factory 428 pistons had a small dish, to reduce CR.

BUT, I noticed that the NHRA specs describes the 428 pistons as "Flat w/notches". Don't mention a dish.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

But, in order to get a piston made that NHRA would approve, I assume it would have to be made very similar to the original, including the dish.

But if not, stranger things have happened, concerning NHRA rules.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by oldskool

Yeah, the factory 428 pistons had a small dish, to reduce CR.

BUT, I noticed that the NHRA specs describes the 428 pistons as "Flat w/notches". Don't mention a dish.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

But, in order to get a piston made that NHRA would approve, I assume it would have to be made very similar to the original, including the dish.

But if not, stranger things have happened, concerning NHRA rules.

Look at the next 2 columns after Flat w/notches. Dome/Dish Vol and Dome/Dish Hgt where it says No Spec.


Stan

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Look at the next 2 columns after Flat w/notches. Dome/Dish Vol and Dome/Dish Hgt where it says No Spec.


Stan

So ???

Are you saying that NHRA is saying the 428 pistons have a dish or don't have a dish, or that they don't know whether they have a dish or a dome, or just what they have ?

All I'm saying is that those engine specs do NOT describe the 428 pistons as having a dish. Just describes them as "Flat w/notches".

So, I'd guess that if a tech guy looked at the top of a piston in somebody's 428 powered Stocker & the piston tops looked just like the 400 Pontiac piston tops, unless they were very familiar with old Pontiac engines, they would OK the pistons, if all they did was just look at the top. UNLESS they had access to more detailed & accurate 428 piston info than what I see that is presented on the Class Racer Info site.

I have run across some info there, that had not been updated to the very latest NHRA info. But, since I figure nobody has planned a 428 Stocker, in a long time, I doubt NHRA has any 428 piston info that is not on the Class Racer Info site.

For me, the bottom line in all this is that the NHRA engine specs(as shown on the Class Racer Info site) do NOT say that 428 pistons must have a dish. And, they do not list any legal replacement pistons. And that's all I'm gonna say about it.

[oldskool]

All the pics I posted of '68's were obviously of Birds. But, there have certainly been some '68 Goat Stockers, thru the years.

The 2 most recent I know of belonged to Adam Strang & Tim Gillespie. Both ran strong. Tim's made the field at Indy more than once. Adam & Tim have both made the field at Indy with their '68 Birds.

[oldskool]

'69 brought more changes.

(1) Ram Air IV engine. Round port heads, the 041 cam, 1.65 rockers, alum intake, forged pistons. But had cast rods.

(2) 1st year of the "The Judge".

(3) 1st year of the Trans Am.

It would also be the last year of the 428 & the last year of the 1st gen Birds.

Here are 9 '69 Bird pics, some from long ago, some more recent, the last one from the last few weeks.

Pic #4 is Phil Monteith's RAIV car, which he bought new. At least that's what I've read.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by oldskool

So ???

Are you saying that NHRA is saying the 428 pistons have a dish or don't have a dish, or that they don't know whether they have a dish or a dome, or just what they have ?

All I'm saying is that those engine specs do NOT describe the 428 pistons as having a dish. Just describes them as "Flat w/notches".

So, I'd guess that if a tech guy looked at the top of a piston in somebody's 428 powered Stocker & the piston tops looked just like the 400 Pontiac piston tops, unless they were very familiar with old Pontiac engines, they would OK the pistons, if all they did was just look at the top. UNLESS they had access to more detailed & accurate 428 piston info than what I see that is presented on the Class Racer Info site.

I have run across some info there, that had not been updated to the very latest NHRA info. But, since I figure nobody has planned a 428 Stocker, in a long time, I doubt NHRA has any 428 piston info that is not on the Class Racer Info site.

For me, the bottom line in all this is that the NHRA engine specs(as shown on the Class Racer Info site) do NOT say that 428 pistons must have a dish. And, they do not list any legal replacement pistons. And that's all I'm gonna say about it.

I have no idea what specs NHRA has for those pistons. Dwight / Class Racer Info does a great job in providing information. But it is not perfect.



Stan

[oldskool]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

I have no idea what specs NHRA has for those pistons. Dwight / Class Racer Info does a great job in providing information. But it is not perfect.



Stan

Well, thankfully, here is finally something that you & I can agree on.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone

Looks like this:

Mark,
Thanks. I knew that 428's had a dish in the piston, but did not know the '67s had it.

Stan