1969,,A/SA,,63' Max Wedge vs. Street Hemi - Page 2

Steve Stasko · 08-01-2018, 07:18 AM

Well, again, the Street Hemi was hitting the streets in late-'65 for 1966...those cars ran the same class as the MW cars.

As far as '64-65...a lot of focus on "match bash" stuff. Many of those cars were getting cut-up or parked. A lot of the same drivers who were running MW cars, got Hemi cars. Few drove two cars at one race.

DeuceCoupe · 08-01-2018, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Ceasrine

May 1969,,,,,,,,Dover Drag Strip, Wingdale, New York

Northeast Raider,,,,,,,,A/SA
1963 Plymouth Belvedere
426/425HP Stage II Max-Wedge (Aluminum-nose with Ram-Air)
11.90's @ 118 MPH.

versus

1968 Dodge Coronet R/T,,,,,A/SA
426/425 HP Street-Hemi
12.40's @ 115 MPH

May 1969

Steve, Thanks for the reply, sadly that makes sense. The good old max wedge I feel would have done well all through the post-1964 era but lived in the Hemi's shadow. I'm sure factory backing for the Max Wedge cars/drivers was pulled in favor of the Hemi as you said.

Looking at Paul's race comparison above, I was reassured, I get about the same from my Gonkulator:
11.64 at 120.0 63 MaxWedge II 3220 lb 1964 prep, 1969 A/SA rules
12.16 at 115.7 69 Street Hemi 3677 lb 1969 A/SA rules

The MaxWedge2 gonkulates to about 515hp vs the StreetHemi at 500hp. Close, but there's still the 400 lb weight difference.

Fords 64 LWG HiRiser, which per the results/records dominated AA/SA=7.00 in 1964-66, Gonkulates to
12.12 at 115.9 1964 prep
11.75 at 119.5 1965-66 era prep

UNFACTORED, the MaxWedge hangs right in there vs either the 1964-66 era 64 Ford LWG or the Street Hemi from 66-up in the same w/p=7.00 class.

That's why I cant figure, why didn't Mopar back the MaxWedge as a competitor in AA/S, AA/SA ? I guessed it was Factored, but if not, I guess it was just "shunned" in favor of the Hemi. Oh well!

X-TECH MAN · 08-01-2018, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Stasko

They didn't vanish. If you're looking at records and results...remember, the Hemi and the lightweight Max Wedge's were both 426/425 hp...So they fell into the same class. A well tuned Hemi car should have been king over the MW cars in the same class anytime they ran.

Aluminum was banned for 1965 and later...but only on "new" production cars. 1964 and earlier cars are/were still legal with the aluminum body panels.

The 1965 Hemi Dodge and Plymouth S/S cars received thinner stamped steel front end fenders, hoods, bumpers and door metal when the Alum. parts were outlawed after 1964..

Steve Stasko · 08-01-2018, 03:22 PM

Max Wedge production ended when Hemi production started in 1964. It has been documented that a few people who ordered MW cars, received Hemi's...and weren't really pleased. Some soldiered on with success, others gave in early.

As far as what Paul posted above...not the best example. Jere Stahl was running mid-11's in 1966 with his Street Hemi Belvedere in A/S.

Why didn't Chrysler back the Max Wedge cars in Stock after '64? Why support something you're not selling...or even building anymore for that matter? While there were MW racers who did receive parts help from Chrysler after 1964...none were ever at the level of Sox or Landy with Chrysler support.

DeuceCoupe · 08-01-2018, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Stasko

Max Wedge production ended when Hemi production started in 1964. It has been documented that a few people who ordered MW cars, received Hemi's...and weren't really pleased. Some soldiered on with success, others gave in early.

As far as what Paul posted above...not the best example. Jere Stahl was running mid-11's in 1966 with his Street Hemi Belvedere in A/S.

Why didn't Chrysler back the Max Wedge cars in Stock after '64? Why support something you're not selling...or even building anymore for that matter? While there were MW racers who did receive parts help from Chrysler after 1964...none were ever at the level of Sox or Landy with Chrysler support.

Thanks Steve it all kinda makes sense now.

Bear in mind though, A/S in 1966 was really more like SUPER stock rules - any cam, any intake - but just still on stock class tires. So Stahl's "street" hemi was quite a bit closer to a "race" hemi. Similarly, Grump's L79 Nova that "ran with" Stahl's hemi was far, far from a "stock class" L79, it was more like a full-on Super-Stock L79 and the result was a total screamer. The 1966 A/S rules were a lot more like next year's SS/BA=7.00 rules except for tires.

DeuceCoupe · 08-02-2018, 12:45 PM

I'm still settling this issue in my mind, came up with the following:

In this thread, Paul C lists the cars/classes for 1966:
http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=46189

He lists the 426/425 MW cars in A/S=7.00 class, implying they were NOT refactored. OK score again for no refactoring.

What bothered me last nite (why????) is, what about the RECORDS? The MaxWedge cars went 12.00 S/S and 12.05 S/SA in the Jan 1964 records sheet. Since their W/P=7.58, they should have "moved" to AA=7.00 when it was created in June 1964, right? But on the Aug 1964 records sheet, they have vanished. It then occurred to me, when the classes change, can cars "move"? What I conclude is, cars can "move" on the record sheet, but only "across" eg from B/S=9.50 to D/S=9.50, or "up" eg from 8.70 to 8.50 class, but a record car CANNOT move "down", eg from 10.60 to 11.00 class or from S/S=0.0 to AA=7.00 class. The record has to be re-set. This is consistent with 1967-1968 when all the classes changed.

So yes (I am guessing), the old Max Wedge records set in S/S and S/SA would vanish - they would NOT drop down to AA/S and AA/SA.

Why weren't they re-set? I think Steve covered that well. Lost factory support, probably lost some magic "factory" transmissions, etc, some magic drivers too, and the records just didn't happen.

Does this sound about right?

08-01-2018, 07:18 AM	#11
Steve Stasko Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Western PA Posts: 433 Likes: 8 Liked 249 Times in 129 Posts	Re: 1969,,A/SA,,63' Max Wedge vs. Street Hemi Well, again, the Street Hemi was hitting the streets in late-'65 for 1966...those cars ran the same class as the MW cars. As far as '64-65...a lot of focus on "match bash" stuff. Many of those cars were getting cut-up or parked. A lot of the same drivers who were running MW cars, got Hemi cars. Few drove two cars at one race.

08-01-2018, 03:22 PM	#14
Steve Stasko Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Western PA Posts: 433 Likes: 8 Liked 249 Times in 129 Posts	Re: 1969,,A/SA,,63' Max Wedge vs. Street Hemi Max Wedge production ended when Hemi production started in 1964. It has been documented that a few people who ordered MW cars, received Hemi's...and weren't really pleased. Some soldiered on with success, others gave in early. As far as what Paul posted above...not the best example. Jere Stahl was running mid-11's in 1966 with his Street Hemi Belvedere in A/S. Why didn't Chrysler back the Max Wedge cars in Stock after '64? Why support something you're not selling...or even building anymore for that matter? While there were MW racers who did receive parts help from Chrysler after 1964...none were ever at the level of Sox or Landy with Chrysler support.

08-02-2018, 12:45 PM	#16
DeuceCoupe Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 271 Likes: 97 Liked 47 Times in 43 Posts	Re: 1969,,A/SA,,63' Max Wedge vs. Street Hemi I'm still settling this issue in my mind, came up with the following: In this thread, Paul C lists the cars/classes for 1966: http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=46189 He lists the 426/425 MW cars in A/S=7.00 class, implying they were NOT refactored. OK score again for no refactoring. What bothered me last nite (why????) is, what about the RECORDS? The MaxWedge cars went 12.00 S/S and 12.05 S/SA in the Jan 1964 records sheet. Since their W/P=7.58, they should have "moved" to AA=7.00 when it was created in June 1964, right? But on the Aug 1964 records sheet, they have vanished. It then occurred to me, when the classes change, can cars "move"? What I conclude is, cars can "move" on the record sheet, but only "across" eg from B/S=9.50 to D/S=9.50, or "up" eg from 8.70 to 8.50 class, but a record car CANNOT move "down", eg from 10.60 to 11.00 class or from S/S=0.0 to AA=7.00 class. The record has to be re-set. This is consistent with 1967-1968 when all the classes changed. So yes (I am guessing), the old Max Wedge records set in S/S and S/SA would vanish - they would NOT drop down to AA/S and AA/SA. Why weren't they re-set? I think Steve covered that well. Lost factory support, probably lost some magic "factory" transmissions, etc, some magic drivers too, and the records just didn't happen. Does this sound about right?