Next Debate.

[goinbroke2]

[QUOTE=X-TECH MAN;106187][QUOTE=goinbroke2;

So, what do you do about the NEW cars coming, seperate turbo/super class? That's one logical response. Except it adds classes.


It might add a few classes by seperating the turbo and supercharged cars from the NA cars but your going to loose a lot more classes by 2010 with the combining of stick and automatics, and the inclusion of the FWD cars with the RWD cars in thier coresponding wt class. They have already combined the trucks with the cars and the FI cars with the Carburated cars. So I dont see the problem of more classes. It will be LESS classes when all is said and done.[/QUOTE]

Excellent point. If they reduce other classes than seperate boost/NA classes would make sense and could work. Would it be A/SAB (boost) and A/SA (N/A) ? Yup that could work! Of course a IHRA Stock GT car would be a mouthfull, S/GTAAB or SS/GT/AA/B/LMNOP? LOL!

[bill dedman]

I have no dog in any of these hunts, and won't, but I have some experience as regards supercharging and its effect on performance that might be of some interest.

I ran my car, a daily-driver, sometimes hobby-class drag strip, bracket car ('72 Valiant/360) with a very mild, normally-aspirated combination (475rpm idle) and ran 13.35 @ 102 mph with a 750cfm carb.
I decided that wasn't very exciting, so I made a change...
All I did to improve performance was to replace the 340 exhaust manifolds with headers, install an air gap-style intake manifold and a Vortech V-1, S-Trim (entry level, the smallest blower Vortech makes, I think).

The first time out for this new forced induction combination (yesterday,) the car ran 1,000-foot times of 9.74 @ 106 mph. That, according to the online computers I use, equates to a high 11-second quarter-mile e.t. (should be better, but it was very cold and there was no traction; 1.81-sec. 60-foots) with a quarter-mile speed extrapolated from the 106@ 1,000-feet, to 120, for the quarter-mile.

I am not claiming that these figures are etched in stone, but they were the most accurate 1,000-foot to quarter-mile conversions I could find.

This was with a measly 10 pounds of boost, and no intercooler.

So, basically, my car picked up virtually a second-and-a-half and 18 mph with this smallish blower, added by a shadetree, backyard mechanic (me) with no diagnostic equipment and truthfully, I haven't even set the timing with a light... just listened to it and adjusted the initial timing "by ear."

What I'm saying is, add a blower to an engine and you have access to a whole new world of power...

That's all.

The rules need to address this.

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

I have no dog in any of these hunts, and won't, but I have some experience as regards supercharging and its effect on performance that might be of some interest.

I ran my car, a daily-driver, sometimes hobby-class drag strip, bracket car ('72 Valiant/360) with a very mild, normally-aspirated combination (475rpm idle) and ran 13.35 @ 102 mph with a 750cfm carb.
I decided that wasn't very exciting, so I made a change...
All I did to improve performance was to replace the 340 exhaust manifolds with headers, install an air gap-style intake manifold and a Vortech V-1, S-Trim (entry level, the smallest blower Vortech makes, I think).

The first time out for this new forced induction combination (yesterday,) the car ran 1,000-foot times of 9.74 @ 106 mph. That, according to the online computers I use, equates to a high 11-second quarter-mile e.t. (should be better, but it was very cold and there was no traction; 1.81-sec. 60-foots) with a quarter-mile speed extrapolated from the 106@ 1,000-feet, to 120, for the quarter-mile.

I am not claiming that these figures are etched in stone, but they were the most accurate 1,000-foot to quarter-mile conversions I could find.

This was with a measly 10 pounds of boost, and no intercooler.

So, basically, my car picked up virtually a second-and-a-half and 18 mph with this smallish blower, added by a shadetree, backyard mechanic (me) with no diagnostic equipment and truthfully, I haven't even set the timing with a light... just listened to it and adjusted the initial timing "by ear."

What I'm saying is, add a blower to an engine and you have access to a whole new world of power...

That's all.

The rules need to address this.

I really don't get the point of this post. We all know that forced induction is a performance modification.

[bill dedman]

GUMP,
All I was saying is, if an idiot like me can bolt on 150 horsepower in his backyard under a shade tree, so-to-speak, for a first time out run, with no experience, what must a factory effort be able to accomplish, and there are no RULES to deal with it.

Pulley sizes that determine boost, and therefore horsepower, need to be addressed SOMEWHERE, don't you think? They're not, as far as I can see.... There appears to be NOTHING in the 2009 rulebook about this.

NHRA needs to get with it; it ain't 1955 any more... That was my point.

[Oclk Dlux]

If you want to control boost in either the FI turbo or supercharged cars, simply limit the injector size to stock. Easy for tech to inspect and will definitely limit how much boost one can run, regardless of calibration or fuel pressure.

Those with carbs would be exempt. Especially if they are intelligent enough to make them work :^)

Rich

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by bill dedman

Pulley sizes that determine boost, and therefore horsepower, need to be addressed SOMEWHERE, don't you think? They're not, as far as I can see.... There appears to be NOTHING in the 2009 rulebook about this.

I think that is what I said in post #6 of this thread.

[GUMP]

Originally Posted by Oclk Dlux

If you want to control boost in either the FI turbo or supercharged cars, simply limit the injector size to stock. Easy for tech to inspect and will definitely limit how much boost one can run, regardless of calibration or fuel pressure.

Those with carbs would be exempt. Especially if they are intelligent enough to make them work :^)

Rich

That is an unfair suggestion. And to top that, it would be an almost impossible task to verify fuel injectors.

[Wayne Kerr]

Guys,
I'm going to let you in on a little information;
1) Yes, more boost can make more power, but just like your air compressor, pressure makes heat, there is a point where the gains in boost are artificial due to the added heat. Tim Kish can tell you exactly when this occurs.

2) If you work on flowing more air into your cylinders, your boost actually goes down, and get this, your power goes up. So give up on the boost limiting idea.

3) Superchargers are not controlled like a turbocharger with a waste gate, therefore the manifold pressure changes with atmospheric pressure, it simply increases the atmospheric pressure by a given amount irrespective of barometer. Bottom line, the supercharged cars behave just like a normally aspirated combination with changes to weather. Turbocharged cars use the waste gate to control to manifold absolute pressure, and therefore can maintain consistent boost pressures regardless of atmospheric pressure.

4) Do you know why most of the "desireable" combinations in Stock and Super Stock are primarily based on engines that were not the "Hi Perf" versions like the '70 LS-6? They are based on the weaker lower performance offerings. The weaker engines are farther from their ultimate performance potential. This is where the NHRA's horsepower factoring system is flawed. The high performance combinations are handicapped from the minute the numbers hit the book. The new engines coming from the automakers are all high performance and are way closer to their power potential than any of the engines from the musclecar era.

That's all for now.
See you at the races,
Wayne Kerr

[bill dedman]

Wayne Kerr said:

>>>"The high performance combinations are handicapped from the minute the numbers hit the book."

Depends on what the numbers are, Wayne.

Just how "handicapped" do you think the 2008 Cobra Jets are?

Ask some of the people who run in Class against those supercharged ponys and see if you can find ONE who thinks the new CJ's are "handicapped."

How do you justify your comment about high performance cars being "handicapped" in the case of these formidable Mustangs? If you think they're actually "handicapped," you may be a cult of one....

[bill dedman]

Originally Posted by GUMP

I think that is what I said in post #6 of this thread.

"A good start would be to police pulley sizes on super charged cars."

THAT is what you said.

What ~I~ said was that the problem has not been addressed and that there are no rules in the Rulebook relative to the problem, and there aren't.

You can't "police" something if it's not breaking any rules. No rules yet exist that relate to boost or pulley sizes.

I was contending that NHRA needs to MAKE some rules that would specify SOMETHING concrete for them to "police."

But, until they (NHRA) do, there's nothing going to happen. Guaranteed.