1969,,A/SA,,63' Max Wedge vs. Street Hemi

[DeuceCoupe]

An old thread I know and not all of us are here any more.
Paul's threads had SO much good info.


I'm (still) compiling old NHRA history and the idea that the MaxWedge was never refactored struck me.


WHERE DID THEY GO????


In all the old records and results sheets, the 63-64 MaxWedge just seems to VANISH after mid-1964 when the Hemi came out. Unfactored, the MaxWedge would've landed in the new AA/S=7.00 class with the 64 Ford LWG 427 HiRiser. Instead, the MaxWedge just vanishes.


It makes me think that NHRA either banned aluminum, or factored the MaxWedge at say 480hp back up into S/S against the Hemi, or something. What happened there????


Paul covered the re-start of the history in 1969 but why doesn't the MaxWedge show up in AA/S=7.00 or A/S=7.00 from late 1964 to early 1967?

[Steve Stasko]

They didn't vanish. If you're looking at records and results...remember, the Hemi and the lightweight Max Wedge's were both 426/425 hp...So they fell into the same class. A well tuned Hemi car should have been king over the MW cars in the same class anytime they ran.

Aluminum was banned for 1965 and later...but only on "new" production cars. 1964 and earlier cars are/were still legal with the aluminum body panels.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Steve Stasko

They didn't vanish. If you're looking at records and results...remember, the Hemi and the lightweight Max Wedge's were both 426/425 hp...So they fell into the same class. A well tuned Hemi car should have been king over the MW cars in the same class anytime they ran.

Aluminum was banned for 1965 and later...but only on "new" production cars. 1964 and earlier cars are/were still legal with the aluminum body panels.

Steve, IIRC the Race Hemi was factored right away up to 480-505hp, somewhere in there. Otherwise, the Hemi would have run in AA/S with a wt/hp of 7.60 or so - same class as the Ford LWG Galaxie HiRiser. By factoring the Race Hemi, that put its wt/hp under 7.00, about 6.50 or so, and up into S/S class.


Now, if the MaxWedge was ALSO factored, it would be up there in S/S and lose to the Hemi. But everything I hear is, the MaxWedge was NOT factored and so its unfactored Wt/hp of 7.80-8.00 puts it into AA/S==7.00 class, right in there with the Ford LWG.


So my question stands!

[Steve Stasko]

Well, again, the Street Hemi was hitting the streets in late-'65 for 1966...those cars ran the same class as the MW cars.

As far as '64-65...a lot of focus on "match bash" stuff. Many of those cars were getting cut-up or parked. A lot of the same drivers who were running MW cars, got Hemi cars. Few drove two cars at one race.

[X-TECH MAN]

Originally Posted by Steve Stasko

They didn't vanish. If you're looking at records and results...remember, the Hemi and the lightweight Max Wedge's were both 426/425 hp...So they fell into the same class. A well tuned Hemi car should have been king over the MW cars in the same class anytime they ran.

Aluminum was banned for 1965 and later...but only on "new" production cars. 1964 and earlier cars are/were still legal with the aluminum body panels.

The 1965 Hemi Dodge and Plymouth S/S cars received thinner stamped steel front end fenders, hoods, bumpers and door metal when the Alum. parts were outlawed after 1964..

[Steve Stasko]

Max Wedge production ended when Hemi production started in 1964. It has been documented that a few people who ordered MW cars, received Hemi's...and weren't really pleased. Some soldiered on with success, others gave in early.

As far as what Paul posted above...not the best example. Jere Stahl was running mid-11's in 1966 with his Street Hemi Belvedere in A/S.

Why didn't Chrysler back the Max Wedge cars in Stock after '64? Why support something you're not selling...or even building anymore for that matter? While there were MW racers who did receive parts help from Chrysler after 1964...none were ever at the level of Sox or Landy with Chrysler support.

[DeuceCoupe]

Originally Posted by Steve Stasko

Max Wedge production ended when Hemi production started in 1964. It has been documented that a few people who ordered MW cars, received Hemi's...and weren't really pleased. Some soldiered on with success, others gave in early.

As far as what Paul posted above...not the best example. Jere Stahl was running mid-11's in 1966 with his Street Hemi Belvedere in A/S.

Why didn't Chrysler back the Max Wedge cars in Stock after '64? Why support something you're not selling...or even building anymore for that matter? While there were MW racers who did receive parts help from Chrysler after 1964...none were ever at the level of Sox or Landy with Chrysler support.

Thanks Steve it all kinda makes sense now.


Bear in mind though, A/S in 1966 was really more like SUPER stock rules - any cam, any intake - but just still on stock class tires. So Stahl's "street" hemi was quite a bit closer to a "race" hemi. Similarly, Grump's L79 Nova that "ran with" Stahl's hemi was far, far from a "stock class" L79, it was more like a full-on Super-Stock L79 and the result was a total screamer. The 1966 A/S rules were a lot more like next year's SS/BA=7.00 rules except for tires.

[DeuceCoupe]

I'm still settling this issue in my mind, came up with the following:




In this thread, Paul C lists the cars/classes for 1966:
http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=46189


He lists the 426/425 MW cars in A/S=7.00 class, implying they were NOT refactored. OK score again for no refactoring.


What bothered me last nite (why????) is, what about the RECORDS? The MaxWedge cars went 12.00 S/S and 12.05 S/SA in the Jan 1964 records sheet. Since their W/P=7.58, they should have "moved" to AA=7.00 when it was created in June 1964, right? But on the Aug 1964 records sheet, they have vanished. It then occurred to me, when the classes change, can cars "move"? What I conclude is, cars can "move" on the record sheet, but only "across" eg from B/S=9.50 to D/S=9.50, or "up" eg from 8.70 to 8.50 class, but a record car CANNOT move "down", eg from 10.60 to 11.00 class or from S/S=0.0 to AA=7.00 class. The record has to be re-set. This is consistent with 1967-1968 when all the classes changed.


So yes (I am guessing), the old Max Wedge records set in S/S and S/SA would vanish - they would NOT drop down to AA/S and AA/SA.


Why weren't they re-set? I think Steve covered that well. Lost factory support, probably lost some magic "factory" transmissions, etc, some magic drivers too, and the records just didn't happen.


Does this sound about right?