possible found 65 afx car - Page 3

dinotheweirdo · 03-09-2012, 12:06 PM

Drakester is right on the money....BLACK ARROW INFO??? we have probably THE MOST History documentation on the car with the biggest collection of photos. All from The Smrtics AND Doc himself....along with archived photos never seen in 35 years from Doc's Old partners Son (Carl Spiedel) the original is GONE ...a Street Clone was built for Doc by the Smrtics And we know where it is. Guy working on it wants to remain 'low-key' til he Debuts it.It does have some original sheet metal ...the pictured 'Clone" back a few posts is close but ....no cigar.... I have some issues with it as far as looking correct. IT WAS ALWAYS owned By Doc...this guy needs to do some homework.I lettered the Altered wheelbase version in Doc's basement while Freddy Murphy(Crew Cheif) adjusted the valves on the Injected hemi.Knew Doc real Good as I was also the annoucer at Dover.
See the Forum at www.doverdragstrip.com and use the search feature ...put in Burgess or BlackArrow and be prepared to spend some time...get a bag of chips. Oh...and for some more fun put in Carmel Ford or Viscome ....All of Drakes Stuff there Too!

Hemi Moose · 03-11-2012, 02:12 PM

Hey Dino,
So which parts were saved off of the original '65 Black Arrow A990 Belvedere when it was re-named and raced as the 'Storm King'...can you post any last known old shots of the car...would like to see exactly what it looked like before it was scrapped.

.

dinotheweirdo · 03-18-2012, 06:07 PM

Too Much Info to Post Here ...Like I said ...Go to Dover Forum...Put "Black Arrow" In Search And Look Out !

try this first :
http://www.doverdragstrip.com/phpBB3...it=black+arrow

Hemi Moose · 03-19-2012, 02:18 PM

Paul C talked about this '65 A990 car and pretty much covered it in another thread posted on here...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Ceasrine

The 'Black Arrow'

Bill 'Grumpy' Jenkins and Doc Bugess..

1965;
Ran S/SA and Super/Stock Match-Bash
Also, A/MP in mid-year 65'

1966;
Popped on the Hilborn-injectors and ran #3000 lb. class
Northeast Match-Bash

Modified the rear-axle (shortened wheel-base) and ran #2800 lb. class.

1967;
The car was hacked up some more.
Ran #2700 lb. class. (Primarily Match-race Events in 'S/US' Class (Super/Ultra Stock)

1967;
End of year, Sold for $3000

1968;
Car was redone, and ran in C/A by 'Storm King'

1968;
End of year; car was gutted and scrapped.

Hemi Moose · 03-19-2012, 02:25 PM

storm king · 03-19-2012, 05:15 PM

Paul C's timeline is about as accurate as it needs to get.
I'm amazed how pictures get around, those small snapshots of us picking up the 'Arrow in late '67, flat towing it home on its race slicks behind my Mom's '67 440 GTX, our workhorse/towcar/Sunday go to meetin' car for years and years.
I'm the guy standing next to our max wedge, '64 Dodge, Storm King 1.
My brother Bill with Doc the day we picked it up, and next to the '65 Hilborn'd hemi AWB car (the former Black Arrow). My brother is the second and last documented owner of the car.
The car's hulk was taken to Consolodated Metalworks in Newburgh, N.Y., and crushed.
As Dino has stated here, the car closest to the original Black Arrow is known, who owns it, what the plans are, etc, etc. If there's interest, I can give a background story on that car.
The car "sorta" painted like the Black Arrow I guess I'd have to call a "tribute" car, as a clone would be virtually indistinguishable from the original, and that car isn't even close other than the color and the way the name is done.
The dover site, as Dino said, is a fabulous place to see so many never before seen pictures of many famous cars from the era. The membership cost for that premium portion of the site is very well worth it, and you get a tee shirt and other goodies as well, plus its a lifetime membership. I've got no dog in the hunt with that site, so this is an unsolicited endorsement...

Hemi Moose · 03-20-2012, 02:30 PM

Storm King, welcome to the forums...so can you tell us what parts you saved off of the original '65 A990 Belvedere before it met it's fate...

storm king · 03-20-2012, 06:07 PM

Well, the engine, trans and rear, of course. Automatic 990 cars had 8.75 Mopar rears in them, as did this one. The trans was a Fairbanks unit so its likely it wasn't the same exact unit that came in the car, but an exchanged one. The engine was a Bill Stiles engine, and a great one at that. We put a rod through the block on that on in '68 at Connecticutt Dragway when we inadvertently mis-adjusted the swinging oil pickup while checking the bearings between weekends. So Jon Lundberg, the "Voice of Drag Racing", and a hero to this kid, made some call for us and arranged for us to get a new Ramchargers engine from them in very short order. You have to understand, the "Arrow" was butchered into a money making match racer, like so many of those cars were. They were beautifully built from the factory back then, but racers bought them to win races. Some guys kept racing in S/S, some went for the big bucks lure of match racing. We preferred S/S, so we bought a wrecked '64 Plymouth from a junk yard in Kingston N.Y., and spent the winter of '68 repairing, modifying, and converting it into a 990 car. While we got all of the surviving factory 990 parts from the 'Arrow when we bought it, there wasn't much left of those accessories. I know there's a bit of a story about the acid dipped fenders and doors, which we did get, but we sold some of them to a guy out west. I'll have to ask Bill where they went again. The car had fiberglass doors, fenders, hood and deck on it when we bought it, and all plexi windows., stripped interior, rear bumper cut in half for the parachute (not mounted up high like one of the pictures here). The grill was butchered up with a moon tank, and it also had a fiberglass front bumper. We never got the lightweight front bumper with the car. The rear wheelbase was literally altered by a local Blacksmith in either Wingdale or Pawling N.Y., someone Doc knew from his verternary practice. It was crude, crude, crude! However, with the wheels moved all the way forward, the car had a 100" wheelbase, and ran straight as a sting! When we put the mechanicals into the "clone", if you will, the hulk was a sad sight indeed. So you have to put yourself back into those days...just like the first thing we did with our max wedge was take the cast iron exhaust manifolds off and scrap them.Today, a replicated set runs about $1,200.00, or 1/3 the cost of a new max wedge when we bought it new! These cars were race cars, not collector items. When a race car was used up, it was discarded. We sold the 'Arrow hulk to a kid from Cornwall, N.Y., who's mother got tired of seeing it in her backyard and made him get rid of it. My brother's partner in his Pro Stock Duster saw the hulk at Consolodated Matal Works in Newburgh, and they had a policy that once something rolled over their scales, it didn't leave. I know guys today get all amped up about stuff like this, but the reality is that its this type of story that adds value to the cars that did survive. I just saw Hank Taylor's '64 wedge and '65 hemi cars at the HRR here in Bowling Green this past year. Imagine, an all original 990 car with less than 2,000 mile on it ( I think the number is under 1,400!) that has never been cut, anywhere! So yeah, its a shame, but life goes on...

Charlie A · 03-20-2012, 08:21 PM

Thank you. Great, first hand history lesson.
And, a reminder that these and many others were nothing but a product of their time.
Collectible only many years later when we all start to look back.

storm king · 03-20-2012, 08:51 PM

I just want to add one thing here too, that being Doc Burgess was and still is a great guy. Quiet, but with a wry sense of humor. He and wife Helen were family friends back in the day. We met him at Dover in '64 when we were running our '64 max wedge S/S and he was running a '64 Plymouth street wedge in either A or B stock, I can't recall exactly.
He told us at the end of the season that he was "coming after us", we had no idea what he was about to do. He bought the "Arrow from none other than Bud Faubel of "Honker" fame, and had it delivered straight to Jenkins shop. I could tell a bunch more here. Everyone knows Jenkins won the Winternationals in Pomona with the car. You know how Doc found out? By reading about it in the drag racing newspapers...

03-09-2012, 12:06 PM	#21
dinotheweirdo Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Rockingham,N.C. Posts: 21 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: possible found 65 afx car Drakester is right on the money....BLACK ARROW INFO??? we have probably THE MOST History documentation on the car with the biggest collection of photos. All from The Smrtics AND Doc himself....along with archived photos never seen in 35 years from Doc's Old partners Son (Carl Spiedel) the original is GONE ...a Street Clone was built for Doc by the Smrtics And we know where it is. Guy working on it wants to remain 'low-key' til he Debuts it.It does have some original sheet metal ...the pictured 'Clone" back a few posts is close but ....no cigar.... I have some issues with it as far as looking correct. IT WAS ALWAYS owned By Doc...this guy needs to do some homework.I lettered the Altered wheelbase version in Doc's basement while Freddy Murphy(Crew Cheif) adjusted the valves on the Injected hemi.Knew Doc real Good as I was also the annoucer at Dover. See the Forum at www.doverdragstrip.com and use the search feature ...put in Burgess or BlackArrow and be prepared to spend some time...get a bag of chips. Oh...and for some more fun put in Carmel Ford or Viscome ....All of Drakes Stuff there Too! __________________ www.doverdragstrip.com Last edited by dinotheweirdo; 03-09-2012 at 12:09 PM.

03-11-2012, 02:12 PM	#22
Hemi Moose VIP Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 2,824 Likes: 0 Liked 12 Times in 12 Posts	Re: possible found 65 afx car Hey Dino, So which parts were saved off of the original '65 Black Arrow A990 Belvedere when it was re-named and raced as the 'Storm King'...can you post any last known old shots of the car...would like to see exactly what it looked like before it was scrapped. . Last edited by Hemi Moose; 03-11-2012 at 02:55 PM.

03-18-2012, 06:07 PM	#23
dinotheweirdo Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Rockingham,N.C. Posts: 21 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: possible found 65 afx car Too Much Info to Post Here ...Like I said ...Go to Dover Forum...Put "Black Arrow" In Search And Look Out ! try this first : http://www.doverdragstrip.com/phpBB3...it=black+arrow __________________ www.doverdragstrip.com

03-19-2012, 02:25 PM	#25
Hemi Moose VIP Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 2,824 Likes: 0 Liked 12 Times in 12 Posts	Re: possible found 65 afx car

03-19-2012, 05:15 PM	#26
storm king Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 5 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: possible found 65 afx car Paul C's timeline is about as accurate as it needs to get. I'm amazed how pictures get around, those small snapshots of us picking up the 'Arrow in late '67, flat towing it home on its race slicks behind my Mom's '67 440 GTX, our workhorse/towcar/Sunday go to meetin' car for years and years. I'm the guy standing next to our max wedge, '64 Dodge, Storm King 1. My brother Bill with Doc the day we picked it up, and next to the '65 Hilborn'd hemi AWB car (the former Black Arrow). My brother is the second and last documented owner of the car. The car's hulk was taken to Consolodated Metalworks in Newburgh, N.Y., and crushed. As Dino has stated here, the car closest to the original Black Arrow is known, who owns it, what the plans are, etc, etc. If there's interest, I can give a background story on that car. The car "sorta" painted like the Black Arrow I guess I'd have to call a "tribute" car, as a clone would be virtually indistinguishable from the original, and that car isn't even close other than the color and the way the name is done. The dover site, as Dino said, is a fabulous place to see so many never before seen pictures of many famous cars from the era. The membership cost for that premium portion of the site is very well worth it, and you get a tee shirt and other goodies as well, plus its a lifetime membership. I've got no dog in the hunt with that site, so this is an unsolicited endorsement... Last edited by storm king; 03-19-2012 at 05:20 PM.

03-20-2012, 02:30 PM	#27
Hemi Moose VIP Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 2,824 Likes: 0 Liked 12 Times in 12 Posts	Re: possible found 65 afx car Storm King, welcome to the forums...so can you tell us what parts you saved off of the original '65 A990 Belvedere before it met it's fate...

03-20-2012, 06:07 PM	#28
storm king Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 5 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: possible found 65 afx car Well, the engine, trans and rear, of course. Automatic 990 cars had 8.75 Mopar rears in them, as did this one. The trans was a Fairbanks unit so its likely it wasn't the same exact unit that came in the car, but an exchanged one. The engine was a Bill Stiles engine, and a great one at that. We put a rod through the block on that on in '68 at Connecticutt Dragway when we inadvertently mis-adjusted the swinging oil pickup while checking the bearings between weekends. So Jon Lundberg, the "Voice of Drag Racing", and a hero to this kid, made some call for us and arranged for us to get a new Ramchargers engine from them in very short order. You have to understand, the "Arrow" was butchered into a money making match racer, like so many of those cars were. They were beautifully built from the factory back then, but racers bought them to win races. Some guys kept racing in S/S, some went for the big bucks lure of match racing. We preferred S/S, so we bought a wrecked '64 Plymouth from a junk yard in Kingston N.Y., and spent the winter of '68 repairing, modifying, and converting it into a 990 car. While we got all of the surviving factory 990 parts from the 'Arrow when we bought it, there wasn't much left of those accessories. I know there's a bit of a story about the acid dipped fenders and doors, which we did get, but we sold some of them to a guy out west. I'll have to ask Bill where they went again. The car had fiberglass doors, fenders, hood and deck on it when we bought it, and all plexi windows., stripped interior, rear bumper cut in half for the parachute (not mounted up high like one of the pictures here). The grill was butchered up with a moon tank, and it also had a fiberglass front bumper. We never got the lightweight front bumper with the car. The rear wheelbase was literally altered by a local Blacksmith in either Wingdale or Pawling N.Y., someone Doc knew from his verternary practice. It was crude, crude, crude! However, with the wheels moved all the way forward, the car had a 100" wheelbase, and ran straight as a sting! When we put the mechanicals into the "clone", if you will, the hulk was a sad sight indeed. So you have to put yourself back into those days...just like the first thing we did with our max wedge was take the cast iron exhaust manifolds off and scrap them.Today, a replicated set runs about $1,200.00, or 1/3 the cost of a new max wedge when we bought it new! These cars were race cars, not collector items. When a race car was used up, it was discarded. We sold the 'Arrow hulk to a kid from Cornwall, N.Y., who's mother got tired of seeing it in her backyard and made him get rid of it. My brother's partner in his Pro Stock Duster saw the hulk at Consolodated Matal Works in Newburgh, and they had a policy that once something rolled over their scales, it didn't leave. I know guys today get all amped up about stuff like this, but the reality is that its this type of story that adds value to the cars that did survive. I just saw Hank Taylor's '64 wedge and '65 hemi cars at the HRR here in Bowling Green this past year. Imagine, an all original 990 car with less than 2,000 mile on it ( I think the number is under 1,400!) that has never been cut, anywhere! So yeah, its a shame, but life goes on...

03-20-2012, 08:21 PM	#29
Charlie A VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mississippi Gulf Coast Posts: 2,483 Likes: 68 Liked 87 Times in 63 Posts	Re: possible found 65 afx car Thank you. Great, first hand history lesson. And, a reminder that these and many others were nothing but a product of their time. Collectible only many years later when we all start to look back.

03-20-2012, 08:51 PM	#30
storm king Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 5 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: possible found 65 afx car I just want to add one thing here too, that being Doc Burgess was and still is a great guy. Quiet, but with a wry sense of humor. He and wife Helen were family friends back in the day. We met him at Dover in '64 when we were running our '64 max wedge S/S and he was running a '64 Plymouth street wedge in either A or B stock, I can't recall exactly. He told us at the end of the season that he was "coming after us", we had no idea what he was about to do. He bought the "Arrow from none other than Bud Faubel of "Honker" fame, and had it delivered straight to Jenkins shop. I could tell a bunch more here. Everyone knows Jenkins won the Winternationals in Pomona with the car. You know how Doc found out? By reading about it in the drag racing newspapers...