Metal in the Oil

Ben Kallies · 05-20-2011, 05:08 AM

After a cam failure a couple of years ago, I recently rebuilt my 454/365 stocker engine with a new cam and Smith lifters, new oil pump and pickup, bearings, rings, timing chain, etc., along with making a few upgrades.

After nothing more than 6 Dyno pulls on the engine, I drained the oil before installing the engine in the car, and I'm a little concerned with the amount of metal in the oil. I used Royal Purple assembly lube for the rotating assy, ARP assy lube on the bolts, and I broke the engine in using Comp Cams break in oil. The oil looks more metallic than I'm comfortable with, and the magnetic drain plug had a little something on it.

Because I'm gun shy from the last failure, I pulled the cam and lifters, just to inspect them, and they appear to be fine. Since I was that far, I also pulled the oil pan, and checked the main and rod bearings. The rod bearings are flawless, and the mains showed minor wear on the outside edges. The only thing I found that appeared a bit excessive was the wear on the cam bearings. I haven't removed them yet, so I can only see the front bearing.

I've included some pictures on the attached link

http://3869ben.shutterfly.com/

My machine shop owner, a former Comp racer, tells me that this is normal wear, and that the metal in the oil is due to break in, and will gradually improve over time.

Anyone want to weigh in on this? I'd appreciate your input. Thanks

Ben Kallies
B/S 3869

The Hitman · 05-20-2011, 07:40 AM

it's normal to have some metal in a fresh engine build especially with new parts,

But that cam bearing bothers me, that's a lot of wear for 6 pulls... isn't it?

Rich Biebel · 05-20-2011, 08:01 AM

Definately a lot of wear on that cam bearing for such a short time running.

Might be from lack of oil or from not enough clearance.....or other possibilites.....

Cam bearings usually do show wear there but it looks like more than usual for such a short time running

Richard Grant · 05-20-2011, 08:03 AM

Always run several magnets inside the motor and the drain plug. It gives you a better idea how much metal you're dealing with and pulls it out of the oil to prevent damage. It sounds like you've checked the suspect areas and found nothing. It's hard to tell about the cam though, you need to check lift if you haven't. I am not familiar with Smith lifters. If they are the same as Schubecks then you should have no cam problems, if not I don't trust anything but Schubeck type lifters with todays oils and spring pressures.

Dave Ribeiro · 05-20-2011, 09:19 AM

Ben,

Having gone thru the same thing a couple of years ago, I know exactly how you feel ... I would take apart the oil pump & check it closely ? I asume the cam bearings were new ? I agree with Rich, you need to look at oil flow to cam bearings ? You also could have a bad cam bearing ? Look at everything you can while you have it apart ? How was the oil pressure on the dyno ?
Could have been a single piece of dirt /metal on one bearing ? I would check the cam ( several times ) for straightness & ground in metal ? Better to be Safe than Sorry ... Good Luck & keep us updated ........... Dave,

Alan Roehrich · 05-20-2011, 10:22 AM

It appears that either the main journals on the crank are tapered, or they have a large radius, and the bearings did not have the correct chamfer. It also appears that there is insufficient oil flow to the cam bearings, or that there is insufficient clearance. The wear on the cam and main bearings is not normal for break in and 6 pulls on the dyno.

I suggest you cut the oil filter open and inspect it, and also tear down the oil pump.

Also, why is the front cam bearing hanging out the front of the block? Even if the block has been damaged, and the damage corrected, the bearing should not hang out the front. The front of the bearing should be cut off, and the Torrington bearing on cam gear shimmed to compensate for the amount the block has been cut to clean up the damage.

Rich Biebel · 05-20-2011, 10:50 AM

Front of that cam bearing face appears to have been machined and a step was left there possibly to retain a wear shim.

BB's often had wear on the block there. We normally cut it all the way across the face, and used a .030 or a .060 thrust washer available from Manley....

Ben Kallies · 06-17-2011, 01:33 PM

After much delay, I finally got around to completing the disassembly and checking everything out:

Oil passages are clean, and all bearing oil holes were lined up properly

I reinstalled the cam and spun it, and it spins very freely. I brought it to the machine shop, and had them mic the journals and bearings, and I've got around .003" clearance. The cam itself looks great.

After disassembling everything, I see no signs of abnormal wear anywhere.

I haven't cut the oil filter open yet, and to be honest, I'm not real sure what I'm supposed to be looking for.

Right now, the plan is to have the blocked cleaned, giving special attention to the oil passages, thoroughly clean everything else, and put it back together with new bearings.

I really appreciate everyone who took the time to respond and offer up their advice and expertise. If there's something that I'm missing, or if I should be delving into something further, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Best Regards,

Ben Kallies
B/S 3869

magnumv8 · 06-17-2011, 10:04 PM

I am going to throw something out for you to check.....if you are running a timing chain and the block hasn't been align bored when you start your reassembly use a new timing gear and chain set....it almost looks like the timing set you had was "short" putting excess pressure on the bottom of your front cam bearing.....

D L Rambo.....

carl hinkson · 06-18-2011, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magnumv8

I am going to throw something out for you to check.....if you are running a timing chain and the block hasn't been align bored when you start your reassembly use a new timing gear and chain set....it almost looks like the timing set you had was "short" putting excess pressure on the bottom of your front cam bearing.....

D L Rambo.....

If a block is being line bored the operator should not be cutting the journals on the block side but only the caps, On performance engines the blocks should be finished with aling hone and not an align bore as most line boring machines can not cut all 5 journals with one set up.

As far as cam to crank center to center distance they are all over the place with GM OEM blocks we had pne a few years ago that was off .016.

When GM machine their blocks the cam tunnels can be off as they line bore with the cam bearings installed to correct to bad machining.

Try to by a GM OEM block with out cam bearings.

On the BBC we take and drill another hole appox. .3:30 grove the OD of the cam bearing between the 2 holes as we try to create another oil wedge before the load area. Make sure your using a performance cam bearings.

The edge loading on the main bearing maybe from tapered journal do to over polishing.

05-20-2011, 05:08 AM	#1
Ben Kallies Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 107 Likes: 2 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Metal in the Oil After a cam failure a couple of years ago, I recently rebuilt my 454/365 stocker engine with a new cam and Smith lifters, new oil pump and pickup, bearings, rings, timing chain, etc., along with making a few upgrades. After nothing more than 6 Dyno pulls on the engine, I drained the oil before installing the engine in the car, and I'm a little concerned with the amount of metal in the oil. I used Royal Purple assembly lube for the rotating assy, ARP assy lube on the bolts, and I broke the engine in using Comp Cams break in oil. The oil looks more metallic than I'm comfortable with, and the magnetic drain plug had a little something on it. Because I'm gun shy from the last failure, I pulled the cam and lifters, just to inspect them, and they appear to be fine. Since I was that far, I also pulled the oil pan, and checked the main and rod bearings. The rod bearings are flawless, and the mains showed minor wear on the outside edges. The only thing I found that appeared a bit excessive was the wear on the cam bearings. I haven't removed them yet, so I can only see the front bearing. I've included some pictures on the attached link http://3869ben.shutterfly.com/ My machine shop owner, a former Comp racer, tells me that this is normal wear, and that the metal in the oil is due to break in, and will gradually improve over time. Anyone want to weigh in on this? I'd appreciate your input. Thanks Ben Kallies B/S 3869 Last edited by Ben Kallies; 05-20-2011 at 05:11 AM.

05-20-2011, 07:40 AM	#2
The Hitman Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 35 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Metal in the Oil it's normal to have some metal in a fresh engine build especially with new parts, But that cam bearing bothers me, that's a lot of wear for 6 pulls... isn't it? __________________ SFV Motorsports IHRA MX36 Dan "The Hitman"

05-20-2011, 08:01 AM	#3
Rich Biebel VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Northern New Jersey suburbs Posts: 2,315 Likes: 25 Liked 544 Times in 213 Posts	Re: Metal in the Oil Definately a lot of wear on that cam bearing for such a short time running. Might be from lack of oil or from not enough clearance.....or other possibilites..... Cam bearings usually do show wear there but it looks like more than usual for such a short time running __________________ Rich Biebel S/C 1479 Stock 147R

05-20-2011, 08:03 AM	#4
Richard Grant Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West Monroe, La. Posts: 301 Likes: 9 Liked 13 Times in 7 Posts	Re: Metal in the Oil Always run several magnets inside the motor and the drain plug. It gives you a better idea how much metal you're dealing with and pulls it out of the oil to prevent damage. It sounds like you've checked the suspect areas and found nothing. It's hard to tell about the cam though, you need to check lift if you haven't. I am not familiar with Smith lifters. If they are the same as Schubecks then you should have no cam problems, if not I don't trust anything but Schubeck type lifters with todays oils and spring pressures. __________________ Richard Grant 4988 STK

05-20-2011, 09:19 AM	#5
Dave Ribeiro VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Williamsburg, Va.---USA Posts: 1,827 Likes: 1,612 Liked 56 Times in 27 Posts	Re: Metal in the Oil Ben, Having gone thru the same thing a couple of years ago, I know exactly how you feel ... I would take apart the oil pump & check it closely ? I asume the cam bearings were new ? I agree with Rich, you need to look at oil flow to cam bearings ? You also could have a bad cam bearing ? Look at everything you can while you have it apart ? How was the oil pressure on the dyno ? Could have been a single piece of dirt /metal on one bearing ? I would check the cam ( several times ) for straightness & ground in metal ? Better to be Safe than Sorry ... Good Luck & keep us updated ........... Dave, __________________ Dave Ribeiro 1033 STK

05-20-2011, 10:22 AM	#6
Alan Roehrich Veteran Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Murfreesboro TN Posts: 5,126 Likes: 1,583 Liked 1,893 Times in 423 Posts	Re: Metal in the Oil It appears that either the main journals on the crank are tapered, or they have a large radius, and the bearings did not have the correct chamfer. It also appears that there is insufficient oil flow to the cam bearings, or that there is insufficient clearance. The wear on the cam and main bearings is not normal for break in and 6 pulls on the dyno. I suggest you cut the oil filter open and inspect it, and also tear down the oil pump. Also, why is the front cam bearing hanging out the front of the block? Even if the block has been damaged, and the damage corrected, the bearing should not hang out the front. The front of the bearing should be cut off, and the Torrington bearing on cam gear shimmed to compensate for the amount the block has been cut to clean up the damage. __________________ Alan Roehrich 212A G/S Last edited by Alan Roehrich; 05-20-2011 at 10:24 AM.

05-20-2011, 10:50 AM	#7
Rich Biebel VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Northern New Jersey suburbs Posts: 2,315 Likes: 25 Liked 544 Times in 213 Posts	Re: Metal in the Oil Front of that cam bearing face appears to have been machined and a step was left there possibly to retain a wear shim. BB's often had wear on the block there. We normally cut it all the way across the face, and used a .030 or a .060 thrust washer available from Manley.... __________________ Rich Biebel S/C 1479 Stock 147R

06-17-2011, 01:33 PM	#8
Ben Kallies Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 107 Likes: 2 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Metal in the Oil After much delay, I finally got around to completing the disassembly and checking everything out: Oil passages are clean, and all bearing oil holes were lined up properly I reinstalled the cam and spun it, and it spins very freely. I brought it to the machine shop, and had them mic the journals and bearings, and I've got around .003" clearance. The cam itself looks great. After disassembling everything, I see no signs of abnormal wear anywhere. I haven't cut the oil filter open yet, and to be honest, I'm not real sure what I'm supposed to be looking for. Right now, the plan is to have the blocked cleaned, giving special attention to the oil passages, thoroughly clean everything else, and put it back together with new bearings. I really appreciate everyone who took the time to respond and offer up their advice and expertise. If there's something that I'm missing, or if I should be delving into something further, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Best Regards, Ben Kallies B/S 3869

06-17-2011, 10:04 PM	#9
magnumv8 Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Coraopolis, Pa. Posts: 172 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Metal in the Oil I am going to throw something out for you to check.....if you are running a timing chain and the block hasn't been align bored when you start your reassembly use a new timing gear and chain set....it almost looks like the timing set you had was "short" putting excess pressure on the bottom of your front cam bearing..... D L Rambo.....