How about those ford cj's at vegas

RULER · 10-30-2009, 09:25 PM

When they get there NHRA gift of 14HP on monday they will have to carry 112lbs more so they will only be about 3 to 4 tenths quicker than the best none C.J. car out there. These cars shouldn't be in stock they should be in super stock, you don't see any 68 darts or barracudas with race hemis running stock and thats because they weren't street legal cars just like these new factory race cars are, Wake-Up NHRA!!

bill dedman · 10-30-2009, 09:43 PM

Ruler,

I think the problem lies not with the street-legality of these cars, nor with the fact that they are (GASP!) supercharged, nor even with their 4-valve cylinder heads.

They are a beautifully-engineered package that has a tremendous advantage over the rest of the field, not because of any of this mechanical supremacy, but because their unrealisticaly low horsepower factor.

I realize that most people are aware of that, but people complain about things like "NOT STREET LEGAL", which wouldn't mean a hill of beans if NHRA had given these 700+ HP motors the horsepower factor they deserved, to begin with.

If they were in Super Stock, with this same bogus HP factor, the same problem would still exist; just the venue would have moved. They'd still be way under their indexes, because they'd be in the wrong class..... AGAIN.

Moving them to Super Stock won't solve anything; it'll just put the problem in a different eliminator.

The HP factor is the problem.... but, AHFS will get it right, in about 2045...

BOB KIRKBRIDE · 10-30-2009, 10:08 PM

The new Cobra Jets need their own class...say AAA/S or A/FX (Sugested by another post) You could not add a realistic horsepower figure and still run stock class. That is why Robert Pond, for instance could never run two four barrel carbs EVEN THOUGH those cars came that way, so AA/S was created. I think they should not have weight added or horsepower, just let them race each other for class!! In Stock eliminator they would be like all the rest PUT A NUMBER ON THE WINDOW! Wouldn't that be simple and mainly FAIR to all the other stock racer that have worked their butts of to gain performance over many years. just my ..02 cents worth. Bob K.

Paul Precht · 10-30-2009, 10:25 PM

The problem IS that they're supercharged. Whether the air is -400 or + 3000 they'll run almost the same, the carb and FI cars won't. Qualifying and heads up runs will never be fair, Paul.

Stephen & Horace Johnson · 10-31-2009, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BOB KIRKBRIDE

The new Cobra Jets need their own class...say AAA/S or A/FX (Sugested by another post) You could not add a realistic horsepower figure and still run stock class. That is why Robert Pond, for instance could never run two four barrel carbs EVEN THOUGH those cars came that way, so AA/S was created. I think they should not have weight added or horsepower, just let them race each other for class!! In Stock eliminator they would be like all the rest PUT A NUMBER ON THE WINDOW! Wouldn't that be simple and mainly FAIR to all the other stock racer that have worked their butts of to gain performance over many years. just my ..02 cents worth. Bob K.

robert pond can run the 2-4 setup!!

Stephen Johnson #2162
Horace Johnson #2167
SS/D 427 Ford Fairlane NHRA-IHRA

Scott Loge · 10-30-2009, 10:28 PM

Keep in mind when the camaro and firebirds first came out were they not F,G and H cars, now b,c and d. It may take awhile but it is still good for our class. It may hurt now but an injection of some sort is better than sitting idle.

New blood stings when first injected but sooths other faults

Jimi B · 10-30-2009, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Loge

Keep in mind when the camaro and firebirds first came out were they not F,G and H cars, now b,c and d. It may take awhile but it is still good for our class. It may hurt now but an injection of some sort is better than sitting idle.

New blood stings when first injected but sooths other faults

I sort of like your thinking, but it is still a hard pill to swallow for some.

bill dedman · 10-31-2009, 12:01 AM

Bob Kirkbride said, "You could not add a realistic horsepower figure and still run stock class"

Is an additonal 36 HP on top of the AHFS-earned 14 HP realistic?

Original factor of 425, plus 14 (AHFS, this coming Monday, is the scuttlebutt), plus an additional 36 to get them out of the twilight zone and into the real world, would provide a new factor of 475 horsepower, which probably isn't enough, but, bear with me....

What you say is true with the 7.5 lbs./hp. AA class we have now, but at 475 HP (factored) and a new, 7 lbs./hp. AAA/S class, they would only have to weigh 32 pounds more than what they'll have to weigh, anyway, this coming Monday morning ( assuming they get the 14 HP they allegedly earned.)

425 + 14 = 439 X 7.5 = 3,293 lbs., + 170 (driver) = 3,463 lbs., for current AA/S as of Monday, 11/2/'09

475 ("realistic" new factor) X 7 = 3,255 + 170 (driver) = 3,495 lbs., for the new AAA/S 7 lbs./HP class

Weight gain after Monday's AHFS added weight would be 3,495 minus 3,463; just 32 pounds.

I think that might work. Their "classmates" in this new 7-pound AAA/S class, might be some '64 Mopar Hemi sedans, a Thunderbolt, or two and possiby a supercharged LS-whatever, 500+ HP, Corvette ZR-1... and next year, the blown Camaro Z28's, with the 'vette motor??????
I've never liked the idea of separating the SS/AH '68 Hemi Mopars (is "segregating" a better word), and this might be a way of avoiding the same kind of anomaly as exists with those cars.

Just my 2-cents....

Evan Smith · 10-31-2009, 05:43 AM

Paul,

You are incorrect in what you say about forced induciton in regards to a Stocker. You would be correct if you could change the compression ratio or speed up the blower, but you can neither in a Stocker. On a cold (dense air day) more oxygen will always be ingested into the engine whether it is supercharged or not. A positive-displacement blower will only more "X" amount of air per revolution, so if you don't speed up the blower, you don't increase the air flow (to compensate) as you want to believe. On a hot day less oxygen makes it to the combustion chamber and we have to reduce the amount of fuel to maintain proper a/f ratio.

Evan

Ken Kopecky · 10-31-2009, 07:56 AM

Since Vegas is an altitude factored track, would the AHFS be in effect? I thought that the AHFS was only used at the non-altitude corrected tracks. But what do I know, I think that the AHFS rules change every week.

Ken Kopecky
1454 E/SA

10-30-2009, 09:25 PM	#1
RULER Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 219 Likes: 15 Liked 57 Times in 17 Posts	How about those ford cj's at vegas When they get there NHRA gift of 14HP on monday they will have to carry 112lbs more so they will only be about 3 to 4 tenths quicker than the best none C.J. car out there. These cars shouldn't be in stock they should be in super stock, you don't see any 68 darts or barracudas with race hemis running stock and thats because they weren't street legal cars just like these new factory race cars are, Wake-Up NHRA!!

10-30-2009, 10:08 PM	#3
BOB KIRKBRIDE Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 62 Likes: 4 Liked 15 Times in 2 Posts	Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas The new Cobra Jets need their own class...say AAA/S or A/FX (Sugested by another post) You could not add a realistic horsepower figure and still run stock class. That is why Robert Pond, for instance could never run two four barrel carbs EVEN THOUGH those cars came that way, so AA/S was created. I think they should not have weight added or horsepower, just let them race each other for class!! In Stock eliminator they would be like all the rest PUT A NUMBER ON THE WINDOW! Wouldn't that be simple and mainly FAIR to all the other stock racer that have worked their butts of to gain performance over many years. just my ..02 cents worth. Bob K.

10-30-2009, 10:25 PM	#4
Paul Precht Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Elysburg, Pa Posts: 704 Likes: 309 Liked 252 Times in 96 Posts	Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas The problem IS that they're supercharged. Whether the air is -400 or + 3000 they'll run almost the same, the carb and FI cars won't. Qualifying and heads up runs will never be fair, Paul.

10-30-2009, 10:28 PM	#6
Scott Loge Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Livermore,Ca Posts: 331 Likes: 15 Liked 141 Times in 30 Posts	Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas Keep in mind when the camaro and firebirds first came out were they not F,G and H cars, now b,c and d. It may take awhile but it is still good for our class. It may hurt now but an injection of some sort is better than sitting idle. New blood stings when first injected but sooths other faults

10-31-2009, 12:01 AM	#8
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas Bob Kirkbride said, "You could not add a realistic horsepower figure and still run stock class" Is an additonal 36 HP on top of the AHFS-earned 14 HP realistic? Original factor of 425, plus 14 (AHFS, this coming Monday, is the scuttlebutt), plus an additional 36 to get them out of the twilight zone and into the real world, would provide a new factor of 475 horsepower, which probably isn't enough, but, bear with me.... What you say is true with the 7.5 lbs./hp. AA class we have now, but at 475 HP (factored) and a new, 7 lbs./hp. AAA/S class, they would only have to weigh 32 pounds more than what they'll have to weigh, anyway, this coming Monday morning ( assuming they get the 14 HP they allegedly earned.) 425 + 14 = 439 X 7.5 = 3,293 lbs., + 170 (driver) = 3,463 lbs., for current AA/S as of Monday, 11/2/'09 475 ("realistic" new factor) X 7 = 3,255 + 170 (driver) = 3,495 lbs., for the new AAA/S 7 lbs./HP class Weight gain after Monday's AHFS added weight would be 3,495 minus 3,463; just 32 pounds. I think that might work. Their "classmates" in this new 7-pound AAA/S class, might be some '64 Mopar Hemi sedans, a Thunderbolt, or two and possiby a supercharged LS-whatever, 500+ HP, Corvette ZR-1... and next year, the blown Camaro Z28's, with the 'vette motor?????? I've never liked the idea of separating the SS/AH '68 Hemi Mopars (is "segregating" a better word), and this might be a way of avoiding the same kind of anomaly as exists with those cars. Just my 2-cents.... __________________ Bill Last edited by bill dedman; 10-31-2009 at 12:20 AM.

10-30-2009, 09:43 PM	#2
bill dedman VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Conway, AR Posts: 1,739 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas Ruler, I think the problem lies not with the street-legality of these cars, nor with the fact that they are (GASP!) supercharged, nor even with their 4-valve cylinder heads. They are a beautifully-engineered package that has a tremendous advantage over the rest of the field, not because of any of this mechanical supremacy, but because their unrealisticaly low horsepower factor. I realize that most people are aware of that, but people complain about things like "NOT STREET LEGAL", which wouldn't mean a hill of beans if NHRA had given these 700+ HP motors the horsepower factor they deserved, to begin with. If they were in Super Stock, with this same bogus HP factor, the same problem would still exist; just the venue would have moved. They'd still be way under their indexes, because they'd be in the wrong class..... AGAIN. Moving them to Super Stock won't solve anything; it'll just put the problem in a different eliminator. The HP factor is the problem.... but, AHFS will get it right, in about 2045... __________________ Bill Last edited by bill dedman; 10-30-2009 at 09:45 PM.

10-31-2009, 05:43 AM	#9
Evan Smith Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Tampa Posts: 404 Likes: 7 Liked 115 Times in 5 Posts	Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas Paul, You are incorrect in what you say about forced induciton in regards to a Stocker. You would be correct if you could change the compression ratio or speed up the blower, but you can neither in a Stocker. On a cold (dense air day) more oxygen will always be ingested into the engine whether it is supercharged or not. A positive-displacement blower will only more "X" amount of air per revolution, so if you don't speed up the blower, you don't increase the air flow (to compensate) as you want to believe. On a hot day less oxygen makes it to the combustion chamber and we have to reduce the amount of fuel to maintain proper a/f ratio. Evan __________________ Evan Smith 1798 STK

10-31-2009, 07:56 AM	#10
Ken Kopecky Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Edison, NJ Posts: 232 Likes: 355 Liked 273 Times in 55 Posts	Re: How about those ford cj's at vegas Since Vegas is an altitude factored track, would the AHFS be in effect? I thought that the AHFS was only used at the non-altitude corrected tracks. But what do I know, I think that the AHFS rules change every week. Ken Kopecky 1454 E/SA