Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers? - Page 3

Alan Roehrich · 04-28-2010, 10:34 PM

About 3-4 years ago, we did some dyno testing for NitroPlate. On a standard set of roadster style dyno headers, a 406 small block Chevy making about 500HP gained approximately 2% HP when we coated the headers. It took tuning to get there.

The first thing we found was that the coating leaned the engine out considerably, the average EGT increased by well over 120 degrees. We had tuned the engine to around 13.2:1 AFR, which yielded the most power before we coated the headers.

With no other changes but the coating, the AFR went to around 14:1, and the EGT went to 1480 + degrees at the end of a 20 second pull. That first pull was down about 4%-6%. However, after we got the AFR back to 13.2:1, and the EGT back down to 1360 or so, we had gained a little over 2% over the base line.

If you tune and record EGT, you may find that you cannot get the EGT back down to where it was before the headers were coated. The coating reflects heat back into the header, so even properly tuned, the EGT is often higher than it is with an uncoated header.

We did not do any testing to see if there were gains to be had because of a reduction in under hood heat. We hope to do more testing in the future, but we haven't scheduled anything as of yet. We did test intake coating, we found around 1% or so on a dual plane single 4 barrel intake coating the exterior only, top and bottom, on a 350 small block Chevy 350HP limited circle track engine.

Ian Hill · 04-30-2010, 12:51 PM

i was part of some testing on a fast burn crate engine, the engine made "x" horsepower on the dyno with a set of custom made regular steel 1 3/4" headers (approx $2500), a second set of headers were tried, custom built for the same style car (mid 80"s camaro) 1 3/4 header, different builder and gained 6 horse and a couple of foot lbs. Then we tried my headers which are right out the catologe Schonfield's 1 5/8 to 13/4 stepped steel header with out collectors, to fit my 67 chevelle. i had mark at Performance Welding make up a set of stainless merg collectors and this combo out did the second set of headers by 11 horsepower without so much as a jet change. $210 for headers $400 for merge collectors 17 horse, win - win in my books!

Performance welding was the only merge collector builder that i contacted that actually asked what my combonation was besides just a 350 ci crate engine. i have to figure that most header builders would not have info on crate motor options as it is only IHRA run, so to be asked for specs showed me i wasn't just going to get another "on the shelf" part that would work for many combos including mine, or at least they made me feel that way. the dealings i had at Performance would make me go back again.

Ian

junior barns · 05-01-2010, 11:04 AM

Ian Hill

In your test, did you add the collectors to your headers for this test or were they always on the car? If it's the later maybe puting the collectors on the custom headers would be another 6+ hp better??

just curious

Ian Hill · 05-02-2010, 09:28 AM

i played around a little between the standard set of Schonfield's and a set of the same with perf. welding collectors. it became instantly clear that the set with the merg collector made some serious gains in the torque curve and amounts while slightly increasing the horspower.

I would like to agree with SSdiv6, and add a bit here. i my opinion, as insignificate as it may be - stainless headers vs. steel headers. As long as the headers are made by the same person, on the same jig with the same gage metal, they should make the same horse power. that being said 5 engines built the exact same way will never make the same horsepower, so good luck. where there is a chance for human error, there will be a chance for human error. while maing headers this could be a simple as a header radius being trimmed .062" too long or the start or stop of the tig weld putting a pimple of weld into the inner diameter of the tube thus affecting the air flow.

Stainless, to me, is only being used for the purpose that these headers become your last set of headers. they will outlast you, your car or your combination. What would change my way of thinking is if someone would expand on the fact that stainless holds more heat than regular steel there for is there chance that from pulse to pulse there is less change of temperature? if this was true, i would expect velocity to slow down using stainless vs steel as the convection of cooler air helping to pull the hotter air out of the head would be less. Or is it that air pulses being closer to the same temperature travel quicker?

This is a great thread so far, great imputs from all. I would say if you are lucky enough, like my self, to find an off the shelf cheap set of headers that work to your expectations, then hooray for us! oher wise open your wallet. i have been .89 under in my first year as a stocker racer and am having a blast. i look forward to next weekend as i should be out for the first time this year. rebuilt motor way more trans gear, diff gear and more spark - a million ways to slow a race car down, i hope i miss them all.
Ian

340Cuda · 05-02-2010, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Wigington

Since no one else has, I have to ask the question, in all seriousness. How much HP are we talking about, material for material ? 1% to 5%, what is the real number, on 300 hp ? On 400, or 600 HP?

Jere Stahl told me once that headers had about 5% to do with total drag car performance. If he is correct, I would think header material would be some fraction of that.

This is a good thread!

Bill

GTX JOHN · 05-03-2010, 03:53 PM

Jim: We are going to see if we can find Mark at Sportsnls. next week....we need 3 sets ourselves....maybe if he builds a bunch at once we can get a little bit of a deal. I have a couple of step design we have been using that work well. Racer7411@yahoo.com

John Irving

Adger Smith · 05-03-2010, 06:46 PM

Does he have E-mail or web site?

340Cuda · 05-04-2010, 08:15 PM

This is pretty old (2003), but a good SpeedTalk interview with Mark.

http://speedtalk.com/shows/009_mark_lelchook.html

I am not sure what these sell for these days.

Bill

65signet · 05-05-2010, 03:03 PM

Mark does some real nice work, got to see it up close last weekend in a new car that just got put together. stainless steel Tri Y

Randy B.791 · 05-05-2010, 09:14 PM

Jim; I know Mark vary well, just in the last couple of weeks I watched him make new headers for George W. John Shawl and a set for Brad Van Lant to test for A-body cars. You Know these guys are vary fast.

04-28-2010, 10:34 PM	#21
Alan Roehrich Veteran Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Murfreesboro TN Posts: 5,101 Likes: 1,557 Liked 1,780 Times in 405 Posts	Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers? About 3-4 years ago, we did some dyno testing for NitroPlate. On a standard set of roadster style dyno headers, a 406 small block Chevy making about 500HP gained approximately 2% HP when we coated the headers. It took tuning to get there. The first thing we found was that the coating leaned the engine out considerably, the average EGT increased by well over 120 degrees. We had tuned the engine to around 13.2:1 AFR, which yielded the most power before we coated the headers. With no other changes but the coating, the AFR went to around 14:1, and the EGT went to 1480 + degrees at the end of a 20 second pull. That first pull was down about 4%-6%. However, after we got the AFR back to 13.2:1, and the EGT back down to 1360 or so, we had gained a little over 2% over the base line. If you tune and record EGT, you may find that you cannot get the EGT back down to where it was before the headers were coated. The coating reflects heat back into the header, so even properly tuned, the EGT is often higher than it is with an uncoated header. We did not do any testing to see if there were gains to be had because of a reduction in under hood heat. We hope to do more testing in the future, but we haven't scheduled anything as of yet. We did test intake coating, we found around 1% or so on a dual plane single 4 barrel intake coating the exterior only, top and bottom, on a 350 small block Chevy 350HP limited circle track engine. __________________ Alan Roehrich 212A G/S

04-30-2010, 12:51 PM	#22
Ian Hill Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 216 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers? i was part of some testing on a fast burn crate engine, the engine made "x" horsepower on the dyno with a set of custom made regular steel 1 3/4" headers (approx $2500), a second set of headers were tried, custom built for the same style car (mid 80"s camaro) 1 3/4 header, different builder and gained 6 horse and a couple of foot lbs. Then we tried my headers which are right out the catologe Schonfield's 1 5/8 to 13/4 stepped steel header with out collectors, to fit my 67 chevelle. i had mark at Performance Welding make up a set of stainless merg collectors and this combo out did the second set of headers by 11 horsepower without so much as a jet change. $210 for headers $400 for merge collectors 17 horse, win - win in my books! Performance welding was the only merge collector builder that i contacted that actually asked what my combonation was besides just a 350 ci crate engine. i have to figure that most header builders would not have info on crate motor options as it is only IHRA run, so to be asked for specs showed me i wasn't just going to get another "on the shelf" part that would work for many combos including mine, or at least they made me feel that way. the dealings i had at Performance would make me go back again. Ian

05-01-2010, 11:04 AM	#23
junior barns Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 541 Likes: 11 Liked 20 Times in 14 Posts	Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers? Ian Hill In your test, did you add the collectors to your headers for this test or were they always on the car? If it's the later maybe puting the collectors on the custom headers would be another 6+ hp better?? just curious

05-02-2010, 09:28 AM	#24
Ian Hill Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 216 Likes: 0 Liked 6 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers? i played around a little between the standard set of Schonfield's and a set of the same with perf. welding collectors. it became instantly clear that the set with the merg collector made some serious gains in the torque curve and amounts while slightly increasing the horspower. I would like to agree with SSdiv6, and add a bit here. i my opinion, as insignificate as it may be - stainless headers vs. steel headers. As long as the headers are made by the same person, on the same jig with the same gage metal, they should make the same horse power. that being said 5 engines built the exact same way will never make the same horsepower, so good luck. where there is a chance for human error, there will be a chance for human error. while maing headers this could be a simple as a header radius being trimmed .062" too long or the start or stop of the tig weld putting a pimple of weld into the inner diameter of the tube thus affecting the air flow. Stainless, to me, is only being used for the purpose that these headers become your last set of headers. they will outlast you, your car or your combination. What would change my way of thinking is if someone would expand on the fact that stainless holds more heat than regular steel there for is there chance that from pulse to pulse there is less change of temperature? if this was true, i would expect velocity to slow down using stainless vs steel as the convection of cooler air helping to pull the hotter air out of the head would be less. Or is it that air pulses being closer to the same temperature travel quicker? This is a great thread so far, great imputs from all. I would say if you are lucky enough, like my self, to find an off the shelf cheap set of headers that work to your expectations, then hooray for us! oher wise open your wallet. i have been .89 under in my first year as a stocker racer and am having a blast. i look forward to next weekend as i should be out for the first time this year. rebuilt motor way more trans gear, diff gear and more spark - a million ways to slow a race car down, i hope i miss them all. Ian

05-03-2010, 03:53 PM	#26
GTX JOHN VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Boulder City, Nevada 89005 Posts: 2,726 Likes: 2,776 Liked 2,452 Times in 692 Posts	Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers? Jim: We are going to see if we can find Mark at Sportsnls. next week....we need 3 sets ourselves....maybe if he builds a bunch at once we can get a little bit of a deal. I have a couple of step design we have been using that work well. Racer7411@yahoo.com John Irving

05-03-2010, 06:46 PM	#27
Adger Smith VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Texarkana Ark/TX Posts: 2,446 Likes: 575 Liked 880 Times in 311 Posts	Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers? Does he have E-mail or web site? __________________ Adger Smith (Former SS)

05-04-2010, 08:15 PM	#28
340Cuda VIP Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma Posts: 1,664 Likes: 3,833 Liked 762 Times in 331 Posts	Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers? This is pretty old (2003), but a good SpeedTalk interview with Mark. http://speedtalk.com/shows/009_mark_lelchook.html I am not sure what these sell for these days. Bill

05-05-2010, 03:03 PM	#29
65signet Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: El Dorado Ca. Posts: 121 Likes: 291 Liked 44 Times in 21 Posts	Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers? Mark does some real nice work, got to see it up close last weekend in a new car that just got put together. stainless steel Tri Y

05-05-2010, 09:14 PM	#30
Randy B.791 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 16 Likes: 0 Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Anybody Use Performance Welding Headers? Jim; I know Mark vary well, just in the last couple of weeks I watched him make new headers for George W. John Shawl and a set for Brad Van Lant to test for A-body cars. You Know these guys are vary fast.