index lowering

[JP1738]

It is my understanding that AHFS was created and used for getting particularly advantageous combinations back in line with other combinations in the same class. So that A/SA was not littered exclusively by 1st generation Camaros, but so that all combos that were eligible to run A/SA overtime would fall in to line with one-another and those that put in the time and effort to excel would be able to do so, while others with less funds or without the same work ethic would fall behind. I'm good with that, it seems fair. Cars that can more easily take advantage of, or benefit more from rules changes or technology improvements should be penalized as different combos in the same class cannot keep up as the improvements given to some combinations are not viable for others. As I said, that seems to be the purpose of the AHFS.

It was not designed to punish those of you who work extremely hard and spend 10s of thousands of $$ on your program to make it quicker, qualify better, win class, and win heads up races should you have one. That is why the AHFS uses an aggregate average of every car in the country running that combination. If one person is excelling in that combination while others toil and struggle, that person should be rewarded for their hard work and dedication by being left alone, while the others are not punished for working hard to get under the index at all, like myself. To my understanding, that is the AHFS system in essence.

The artificial lowering of indexes makes no sense to me. Not only does it substantially raise the cost of entering the sport, but it rewards combinations that, if left alone, would be given HP and fall back into line with other combinations in their class.

If indexes had been lowered before this past season, I would never have built my stocker to begin with as a 24 year-old (25 now) on a shoe string budget. I believe the fastest I went all year this past year was MAYBE -.35 under and I had a ball. I hope they don't remove me from competition.

[Mark Lewis]

All lowering the indexes does is keep people like Dawson from competing. It also makes NHRA job easier by not policing the combo's that need HP adjustments whether up or down.
That's my take. People that qualify high will still be there, just not the bigger number under. Been there done that

Mark Lewis

[HR9121]

Originally Posted by Mark Lewis

All lowering the indexes does is keep people like Dawson from competing. It also makes NHRA job easier by not policing the combo's that need HP adjustments whether up or down.
That's my take. People that qualify high will still be there, just not the bigger number under. Been there done that

Mark Lewis

This pretty much says it all Mark!

[SDmopar]

Originally Posted by Bryan Worner

One thing that definitely needs lowered with the AHFS is the .65 under run to count towards the engine average. Right now almost half of the cars out there don?t make a run that counts. If you keep it at .65, that?s like raising it to .85. I suggested it be returned to .35 under.

AFHS would work better if the Combos under .65 average got HP taken off automatically.

You should also have to have a Minimum and Maximum car count. Need at least 20 runs to get HP off. And take the Top 70% to add HP

[Dan Bennett]

Huge congratulations to Avery for looking at real numbers, though as he mentioned, may be skewed by people detuning to game the system.

For something like this that makes a major impact in how races turn out, the NHRA should have been doing (and publishing this) since day one. But sadly, the outcome they're looking for is 180 out from what racers want.

[AveryMcLawhorn]

Originally Posted by Herbie Null

Great job on the data Avery, it really shows how we as a collective group can askew the data in performance when a certain percentage try to get their average below .850 so a HP hit does not come our way. When you take a look at INDY qualifying the last 2 years it would be cool to see how that data aligns with yearly AHFS data. Indy data to me would be the real performance data since the AHFS is turned off. I really believe nothing is coming from all of this, just continue to slow those cars down for the averages is the new game.

Last Data post maybe ��. Cause I am a man of my word, Herbie I did one better and looked at the last 5 years. Here is the simple version of the data. Note I removed any runs that were not below the index to limit the sample bias. Please look at the attachments as trying to transpose tables does not work very well. There are things to consider when looking at the data like weather conditions.

Year # of Cars On Q Sheet Top Qualifier Bottom Qualifier in Field Average under index Total Total Runs Counted Class Runs Average Class Runs Count

Year # of Cars On Q Sheet Top Qualifier Bottom Qualifier in Field Average under index Total Total Runs Counted Class Runs Average Class Runs Counted
2019 139 -1.762 -0.675 -0.883 690 -0.936
2020 129 -1.355 3.446 -0.794 474 -0.871
2021 132 -1.104 -0.208 -0.747 528 -0.774
2022 141 -1.690 -0.366 -0.853 682 -0.933
2023 139 -1.640 -0.599 -0.881 698 -0.946
2024 148 -1.626 -0.607 -0.822 722 -0.833

[DG]

People seem to be missing the point that gaming of the AHFS is rampant resulting in the following problems:

1. The AHFS is not functioning as intended to bring parity
2. With so many cars letting off at 1000' its beginning to look like a .90 category and losing fan appeal.
3. Its not fun for performance oriented racers to detune their cars most of the year to lower their average so they can safely run fast on just a few runs each year.
4. Stock and SS are losing their appeal to performance oriented racers which may be hurting participation of long time racers
5. Due to weak tech, some racers are claiming combinations they do not have, but willing to hurt the HP rating on
6. If a racer decides to bomb an engine HP rating, many other racers are hurt financially and competitively through no fault of their own

I am sympathetic to those that are trying to race on a tight budget or chose a race car that hasn't had the same level of benefit of NHRA approved aftermarket parts. But I do appreciate any attempt by NHRA to rectify the above problems. I like lowering the stock indexs 3 tenths, with the same -.86 trigger, as a simple way to allow me to run the car fast and have more fun. That said, their are certainly numerous other tweeks the NHRA could do such as raising the trigger to -1.0 and lowering indexes less that could work.

[Billy Nees]

Originally Posted by DG

5. Due to weak tech, some racers are claiming combinations they do not have, but willing to hurt the HP rating on
6. If a racer decides to bomb an engine HP rating, many other racers are hurt financially and competitively through no fault of their own

Gee, where ever did you get that idea?

[HR9121]

Originally Posted by DG

People seem to be missing the point that gaming of the AHFS is rampant resulting in the following problems:

1. The AHFS is not functioning as intended to bring parity
2. With so many cars letting off at 1000' its beginning to look like a .90 category and losing fan appeal.
3. Its not fun for performance oriented racers to detune their cars most of the year to lower their average so they can safely run fast on just a few runs each year.
4. Stock and SS are losing their appeal to performance oriented racers which may be hurting participation of long time racers
5. Due to weak tech, some racers are claiming combinations they do not have, but willing to hurt the HP rating on
6. If a racer decides to bomb an engine HP rating, many other racers are hurt financially and competitively through no fault of their own

I am sympathetic to those that are trying to race on a tight budget or chose a race car that hasn't had the same level of benefit of NHRA approved aftermarket parts. But I do appreciate any attempt by NHRA to rectify the above problems. I like lowering the stock indexs 3 tenths, with the same -.86 trigger, as a simple way to allow me to run the car fast and have more fun. That said, their are certainly numerous other tweeks the NHRA could do such as raising the trigger to -1.0 and lowering indexes less that could work.

The AHFS worked fine when my combination got an additional 13 HP tacked on in a 4 year stretch. The problem arose when racers started lobbying for changes and you ended up with what we have now. Pretty much anyone that gets HP under the system as it stands now either doesn't care, is an idiot or just a really bad mistake.
I get everyone wants to go fast at Indy but it is really the only race where there is something on the line worth getting hit for and we don't even count that data!
Let's face it if you got a car running more than 1.20 under at Indy it needs refactoring if you're trying to establish parity.

[Allen Wilson III]

NHRA can change whatever they want, but the AHFS will never work because the NHRA doesn?t incentivize racers enough to penalize themselves. It will only work if they have it at events like Indy, and that ruins all of the fun. Racers aren?t going to penalize themselves for no reason, and NHRA won?t fix combos as they need adjusted, so we will just continue to make meaningless tweaks to the system.