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-   -   Energy Recovery Oil Pump traits? (https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=65849)

Todd Gross 04-10-2017 06:08 PM
Energy Recovery Oil Pump traits?
 
I have a customers LS engine that I installed an energy recovery oil pump in. Last season with a standard volume Mellings pump and 5/20 or 0/20 oil @ 120f max coolant temperature, the car would leave the line at 90PSI and go through at 78 to 82.
With the new pump, first warm hit on the dyno, it shot up to 150 psi and stayed all the way through ( may have been higher as the transducer on the dyno is rated at 150# max). It had the smallest spring and the the poppet ball moved freely.
I talked to Vern S. about the pressure and he was very helpful and talked through things to great extent. In the end he theorized that the oiling system in the engine was very efficient and recommended shortening the spring and teeing the bypass hose to route some of the bypass oil to the screen / box area of the pick up and the other back to the tube as originally designed. He also stated if pressure is still to high to shorten the spring at .030' increments until I get what I want.
Now with that done with warm engine , 0/20 oil, it idled at 40 to 50# and shot up to and leveled at 100 / 105# as soon as the throttle was snapped. Still to high.
I have made adjustment to shorten the spring another .030". Customer will have it running this week and hopes to test.
Has anybody run into a similar experience? This is the first time I have utilized this type of pump and although I understand the theory of the energy recovery pressurizing the inlet side of the pump, I am still really surprised that a thinner pump develops higher pressure ( w/ short spring ) and ramps up so quickly compared to the Mellings on the same engine.

SSDiv6 04-10-2017 06:31 PM
Re: Energy Recovery Oil Pump traits?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMan (Post 531852)
I have a customers LS engine that I installed an energy recovery oil pump in. Last season with a standard volume Mellings pump and 5/20 or 0/20 oil @ 120f max coolant temperature, the car would leave the line at 90PSI and go through at 78 to 82.
With the new pump, first warm hit on the dyno, it shot up to 150 psi and stayed all the way through ( may have been higher as the transducer on the dyno is rated at 150# max). It had the smallest spring and the the poppet ball moved freely.
I talked to Vern S. about the pressure and he was very helpful and talked through things to great extent. In the end he theorized that the oiling system in the engine was very efficient and recommended shortening the spring and teeing the bypass hose to route some of the bypass oil to the screen / box area of the pick up and the other back to the tube as originally designed. He also stated if pressure is still to high to shorten the spring at .030' increments until I get what I want.
Now with that done with warm engine , 0/20 oil, it idled at 40 to 50# and shot up to and leveled at 100 / 105# as soon as the throttle was snapped. Still to high.
I have made adjustment to shorten the spring another .030". Customer will have it running this week and hopes to test.
Has anybody run into a similar experience? This is the first time I have utilized this type of pump and although I understand the theory of the energy recovery pressurizing the inlet side of the pump, I am still really surprised that a thinner pump develops higher pressure ( w/ short spring ) and ramps up so quickly compared to the Mellings on the same engine.
Vern Schummann knows his stuff and makes various versions of his oil pumps for each engine application.

If your application is for a Stock or Super Stock engine, this pump is an overkill.

This Energy Recovery version of his pump is more effective when used with a Petersen external oil pressure regulator and to adjust its operation, in lieu of an oil pressure gauge, you use an inline flowmeter and adjust the oil pump for a specific oil volume flow.

I know of a racers that have been using the Energy Recovery oil pump with the external regulator successfully on high RPM engines making 1000+ HP.

If your application is a Stock Eliminator, his Pro Standard version of the pump would suffice; if a Super Stock, you can use either the Pro Standard or the Pro Maxx version of the pump.

Todd Gross 04-10-2017 07:32 PM
Re: Energy Recovery Oil Pump traits?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSDiv6 (Post 531856)
Vern Schummann knows his stuff and makes various versions of his oil pumps for each engine application.

If your application is for a Stock or Super Stock engine, this pump is an overkill.

This Energy Recovery version of his pump is more effective when used with a Petersen external oil pressure regulator and to adjust its operation, in lieu of an oil pressure gauge, you use an inline flowmeter and adjust the oil pump for a specific oil volume flow.

I know of a racers that have been using the Energy Recovery oil pump with the external regulator successfully on high RPM engines making 1000+ HP.

If your application is a Stock Eliminator, his Pro Standard version of the pump would suffice; if a Super Stock, you can use either the Pro Standard or the Pro Maxx version of the pump.
You are absolutely correct about Vern knowing his stuff. I'm not disputing that or knocking his product. I'm just trying to get as much understanding as I can to feel confident about my customers oiling system.
This pump was special ordered and speced out for a Factory Stock application when ordered. With that said, using an external regulator is not accepted as I'm sure you know.
There are others in F/S using the energy recovery pumps that is why the owner requested to switch over.

SSDiv6 04-10-2017 09:40 PM
Re: Energy Recovery Oil Pump traits?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMan (Post 531865)
You are absolutely correct about Vern knowing his stuff. I'm not disputing that or knocking his product. I'm just trying to get as much understanding as I can to feel confident about my customers oiling system.
This pump was special ordered and speced out for a Factory Stock application when ordered. With that said, using an external regulator is not accepted as I'm sure you know.
There are others in F/S using the energy recovery pumps that is why the owner requested to switch over.
The regular LS OEM oil pump puts out 4~6 GPM's of flow and will cavitate past 6000 RPM. The Schumman pump has an output of 8.5+ GPM's past 6000 RPM's.
Ask Vern how low you can go on oil pressure and still keep at minimum 8.0+ GPM at high RPM's without cavitating.
Also ask Vern if he has a weaker relief spring that would do the job in lieu of cutting more of the spring.
Eventually with use and heat cycles, the spring will change its tension.

Signman 04-11-2017 10:12 AM
Re: Energy Recovery Oil Pump traits?
 
Are you running a paper oil filter or screen?

Todd Gross 04-11-2017 03:23 PM
Re: Energy Recovery Oil Pump traits?
 
Screen filter. I do not know how many micron off the top of my head.

SSDiv6 04-11-2017 04:00 PM
Re: Energy Recovery Oil Pump traits?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMan (Post 531903)
Screen filter. I do not know how many micron off the top of my head.
Does it have a bypass?
The wrong microns and lack of bypass can create the issue.

Todd Gross 04-11-2017 10:40 PM
Re: Energy Recovery Oil Pump traits?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSDiv6 (Post 531907)
Does it have a bypass?
The wrong microns and lack of bypass can create the issue.
That was a good suggestion and the owner could not come up with the micron spec. It does have a bypass, but again, don't know the rating.
I advised him to remove the cartridge and start it to see if there was a difference.
He just reported back, no change. I'll call Vern again tomorrow.

SSDiv6 04-11-2017 10:56 PM
Re: Energy Recovery Oil Pump traits?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMan (Post 531940)
That was a good suggestion and the owner could not come up with the micron spec. It does have a bypass, but again, don't know the rating.
I advised him to remove the cartridge and start it to see if there was a difference.
He just reported back, no change. I'll call Vern again tomorrow.
JMan,
If the oil filter is a System 1, remove it and put a standard Wix or Hastings oil filter and test the pressure again.

The System 1 billet oil filter has a known history of giving problems to many racers and engine builders with either extreme high pressure or oil pressure fluctuations.

The only billet oil filter I recommend is the Pure Power Billet oil filter.
It has a bypass and it is well engineered for the specific engine, including a dedicated oil filter for LS engines.

Todd Gross 04-12-2017 06:03 PM
Re: Energy Recovery Oil Pump traits?
 
It is a Pure Power filter. I talked to Vern today and he gave the filter his seal of approval.
Also on a side note, he went on to say there are a bunch of bad paper filters out there now. He would not state brands, but there some with debris that coming out of the paper. Blow in some 15-20 psi air and see if a cloud comes up.
Otherwise he said to keep the purple spring and back it off until the hi rpm pressure is down to 85 to 95#


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