ceramic bearings
Do ceramic bearings actually help performance, or no? This topic came up the other day. Your comments please.
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Re: ceramic bearings
Im getting them for my front wheel bearings and rear end bearings. I'm looking to see MPH not ET gains. But no, I have no actual experience with these.
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Re: ceramic bearings
The 200 mph plus bikes at Bonneville all use them. I cant speak for the cars but they must work, but they arent cheap.
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Re: ceramic bearings
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Anything and everything you can do to reduce drag is worth et. I had the first all roller bearing 4 speed in SS and it was worth et. I probably had the first ball bearing carrier in comp and my car would roll in the staging lanes when others would not. I had unknown "helpers" who would comment on how easy my car was to push. (In A/SM at 3,000 lbs.) I have a friend who works on an IRL team. (One of the top qualifiers) They (IRL) only allow ceramic bearings on the right rear because of the cost. Otherwise the well funded teams would have them on all four corners. Cost.... $17,000 for the RR. If you wanna be fast, no stone goes unturned. You do it all. Does that answer your question??? |
Re: ceramic bearings
Yes. Thanks, but I believe I'll pass at this time. A little too spendy if they cost that much.
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Re: ceramic bearings
They don't cost $17,000 for a passenger car. Indy or F1 cars are another breed of car!
Call Jack & get a quote. |
Re: ceramic bearings
Might as well get them.
Space -age, exotic, composite, non OEM type parts are legal in Stock now. |
Re: ceramic bearings
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Not really. Just a different design. The same technology that applies to those cars applies to these cars as well. Take your pick.... carbon fiber, titanium, ceramics, aerodynamics, lubricants, fluid dynamics, and on and on. Just like carbon fiber brakes. I don't know what they cost now but I bought them when they were $3,300.00. Money well spent. I had a titanium bell housing in SS back in 1989 before they were ruled out. Ceramic bearings are relatively old technology. Back in the '80's a friend of mine worked at shop that build small turbine power plants for the US Military similar to the ones used in cruise missiles. He put me onto them back then. If you want the latest and greatest, the lightest and fastest, start looking at F1, IRL, NASCAR, Military and Space technology. By the time most of the Sportsman racers find out about it, it's old news. |
Re: ceramic bearings
Rear axle bearings from Performance Bearings are just over $210 each. Pinion assemblies range from $877 to just under $1K. Carrier bearings around $600 for the set. I got a quote for doing angular contact bearings for the front hubs (Mustang II stuff) at $550 per set.
For the class I'm building this car for I'm thinking it is well worth the cost. |
Re: ceramic bearings
used to inline speedskate in the early 90's and one kid got them and they made a lot of noise but dam he would just roll away from everyone. then they sold them to everyone they owned a shop
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Re: ceramic bearings
If you could only afford one set of ceramic bearings, which set would give
you the biggest advantage? ed:confused: |
Re: ceramic bearings
My GUESS would be rear end. I have a Dana 60 with all MW parts. I'm about to get the Performance bearings package for the entire rear. I just need the shop to narrow the axle tubes, put new ends on it and get final measurements so I can get the new axles ordered. Previous axles were MW 40 spline with 11/16" rifle bore. New axles will be MW 40 spline with 1 1/16" rifle bore and 300M material. I'm also changing from 5:13 ratio to 5.86 ratio. Both the old and new ring gear are back-cut. The R&P will be coated (see last paragraph).
I'll take a measurement of torque to rotate the pinion before and after and post the results here. I'm not sure how or if I should measure torque at the axle? Don't expect this next week, this shop is slower than molasses! But we had a long talk yesterday and he's made a commitment to get the chassis & engine done by the end of this year. I'll believe it when I see it but I'm making a big push. I will push real hard to get the Dana up and ready to run. That also involves setting the engine / trans in the car with new motor plates to determine positioning of the Dana and axle size left & right. I'm not sure what MW's lead time is on these 300M axles. So just pushing for the rear-end to be completed will get the chassis well on the way to completion. FYI - Same shop has had a hand in a customers vintage 4-cylinder road race car. After using a propriety coating on all bearings and bushings from front to rear (spindles, trans, rear), the car reduced lap times by 8 seconds. That's huge. He also believes that true ceramic bearings would be better yet. |
Re: ceramic bearings
I know that top of the line professional bicycles use ceramic bearings. The general consensus is that they are worth it if you must keep up with the Joneses with a big budget but that there are generally a few better ways to spend money for regular folks.
Chris Barnes Wagons of Steel Stock 6621 |
Re: ceramic bearings
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But yes, I'm sure $$ can be spent elsewhere for better gains and if it's not in the budget, then that takes care of that. But then again I see people spend $20K on an engine and cry like a baby over spending $2,000 to $3,000 on a clutch that will actually let the car perform like it should. |
Re: ceramic bearings
It's just one more example of how a race car or bike is the some of it's parts.
Jumping on a nice bike after a crappy one is impressive. I think the biggest gain on a bike is the light wheels. If you could fit Lance Armstrong's wheels on your Huffy you would be amazed. Hold a heavy wheel in your hand and spin it, it will pull you around the room. Do the same with a light wheel and feel the difference. Of course you would also notice the better bearings during this experiment. Speaking of bearings, wouldn't changing over to ball bearings and lighter lube accomplish much of what we're trying to get from the ceramics? Chris Barnes Wagons of Steel Stock 6621 |
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If you are spending that much money, why didn't you just put a new 9" under the car with an alum center. |
Re: ceramic bearings
A) I never see a Dana break & I see 9" break. I've been through 3 different gear sets & they always look like new.
B) Bearings are going to be the same one way or another. C) I'm pretty sure the frictional loss is greater on a 9". If I were into changing gears a lot, then a 9" would wipe out the other reasons. |
Re: ceramic bearings
Oops
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Re: ceramic bearings
OK, now that we established this thread, the reason I started it was because a very well known, and successful comp racer told me he spent $ 20,000 on ceramic and never gained a thing. And I know he was trying to help, not lead us astray. What say everyone now. He said don't waste ur time or money.
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Re: ceramic bearings
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No Comment. |
Re: ceramic bearings
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The internet is full of experts. By the way, did you read what I posted about the little road racer decreasing his lap times by EIGHT seconds with only a full treatment of a ceramic COATING on wheel bearings, transmission components and rear end components? Do you realize how much money it would cost in engine R&D to reduce lap times by 8 second on a road course? That's probably like you gaining a half-second in your drag car. Have you gone to the Performance Bearing website? You'll find there are many grades of ceramic bearings. When a guy tells me he spent $20K on bearings, it doesn't always mean he spent the money on the best parts. Maybe he did though, I don't know. But I know this for a fact. I've seen guys spend boo-koo bucks on trick parts and still it takes three or four guys to push the car in the staging lanes. All the trick parts in the world won't fix that problem. The real problem must be addressed before looking at any "trick" parts. Personally, I could care less what John Force or Warren Johnson has to say about a parts merits. I do my own thinking and roll my own dice. |
Re: ceramic bearings
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I looked at PerformanceBearing.com and he has 9" bearings listed but not Dana bearings. They will make any bearing you want if not listed. The 40 spline MW axle bearings are $210 a pair and that would be true if a 9" or Dana. Door car front wheel bearings are shown as $550 approximate (I think it was $542); that's per pair. Pricing is based on application. My AMX spindle bearings cross reference to '67 (and other year) Mustang bearings. So I'm assuming a pair of wheel bearings will be in that price range for my AMX. I haven't called yet. Lamb spindle kits were around $650. Finally, I did some research on the net. As I said, I don't follow every theory "just because so and so said so" but here's what Evan Smith apparently found: Numbers published by Evan Smith in National Dragster show that because of the reduced offset between the pinion shaft axis and the axle centerline, the Dana 60 has LOWER drivetrain losses than either the 12-bolt or the 9-inch: Dana 60: 5% GM 12-Bolt: 7% Ford 9-inch: 10% And yes, there is as much contradictory evidence as supporting evidence on the web regarding frictional losses. |
Re: ceramic bearings
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I've used Torco rear lube in my Dana and as I've said, it always looks new. I've also used Lubrication Engineering (?) sold by Lamb. It's good, it's very expensive and I saw a MPH increase. Not much but is was definitely there. I did go as high as 126 in D/S. Something worked! |
Re: ceramic bearings
This load vs losses has alot of holes it really depends on how input load you are using (no load vs 500 lb-ft) at no load a 9 inch would show more lose than say 500 lb-ft the 9" has less then as the whole gear Assm is locked down pinion has god front carrier bearings bad a pinion tail support the spool has the billet caps and the solid spanners. If I were building a new 9" center today I would use the High strengh steel case that Strange has and Ford the NASCAR teams are using these cases about 2 to 3 lbs lighter than the Nodular but a little maybee 8 heavier than alum. But everything will stay in place and not move!
QUOTE=Jeff Lee;288933]I should never say never! Yes, I have seen Dana 60's spit out gears over the years. Nothing is infallible. Of course there's always "the rest of the story" and we'll never know if the parts had a million runs on them, were not set up correctly or the clutch was better suited for a dump truck than a race car. But I'll stick to saying I've seen more broken 9" rears than Dana's. I looked at PerformanceBearing.com and he has 9" bearings listed but not Dana bearings. They will make any bearing you want if not listed. The 40 spline MW axle bearings are $210 a pair and that would be true if a 9" or Dana. Door car front wheel bearings are shown as $550 approximate (I think it was $542); that's per pair. Pricing is based on application. My AMX spindle bearings cross reference to '67 (and other year) Mustang bearings. So I'm assuming a pair of wheel bearings will be in that price range for my AMX. I haven't called yet. Lamb spindle kits were around $650. Finally, I did some research on the net. As I said, I don't follow every theory "just because so and so said so" but here's what Evan Smith apparently found: Numbers published by Evan Smith in National Dragster show that because of the reduced offset between the pinion shaft axis and the axle centerline, the Dana 60 has LOWER drivetrain losses than either the 12-bolt or the 9-inch: Dana 60: 5% GM 12-Bolt: 7% Ford 9-inch: 10% And yes, there is as much contradictory evidence as supporting evidence on the web regarding frictional losses.[/QUOTE] |
Re: ceramic bearings
I knew I wanted a 12 bolt over a 9", but am surprised at the Dana 60. Still a lot of un-sprung wt.
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Re: ceramic bearings
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Can you run an aftermarket Nodular case in Stock? I just got off skype from talking to my dad about putting together a new third member so I'm just wondering? |
Re: ceramic bearings
Yes.
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Re: ceramic bearings
At one time I ran 4.88's in my AMX. I bought the R&P used from John Dourlet who had literally hundreds of runs on them behind his A/S '64 Savoy Max Wedge car. The looked perfect when I got them and when I changed to steeper gears in my X, they still looked perfect.
I do have CM axle tubes, MW caps, and back-cut ring gear along, MW lite-weight steel spool with and a T/A cover. I remember when Don Little changed out the 8 3/4 in his 'Cuda to a Dana 60 when he put the Hemi in it, he only picked up about a dozen pounds. |
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Re: ceramic bearings
Not to split hairs...but I thought the GM 12-bolt was regarded as the MOST efficient
rear end for many years... That would explain why I saw several SS/AA cars sporting 'em when I last went to Indy back in the mid-'90's! But then again...maybe they were in there...because they were the lightest axle assembly of the 3 types? |
Re: ceramic bearings
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Re: ceramic bearings
The 8.8 and the 12 bolt are twinkies.
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Re: ceramic bearings
Not trying to split hairs, but is there any measurable performance advantage between a ceramic angular contact bearing for the front spindle's vs a full roller ceramic bearing ?
Also is there any data showing where the angular contact bearing is less safe than a full roller bearing when upgrading to ceramics ? I ask because the brake manufacture we are working with is giving us fits and telling us the angular ceramic bearing is unsafe with our particular spindles (1991 Mustang). I have a hard time believing this when I know there are stockers and super stockers out there in excess of 3500lbs using this very bearing. Our race weight will be 3150lbs. |
Re: ceramic bearings
I have wondered the same thing about the front bearings. Is there a load difference even on steel angular bearings when coming down off a wheelie. I look at tooling everday that is held in place by the locking friction of angles. When an angled bearing has load applied I would think it has to create a little more friction than any ball type bearing, just by design. Then there is the question about wheelies and the loading on ceramic bearings. Are they fragile?
Ed, why not put a Strange 12 bolt drop out in a 9" housing instead of replacing 9" housing with a 12 bolt housing. Class legal? |
Re: ceramic bearings
oops!
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Re: ceramic bearings
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Thanks, Andy |
Re: ceramic bearings
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Wade |
Re: ceramic bearings
Andy sent u a PM---FED387
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