.370 back to .400 Pro Tree
 

If you run Super Comp &/or Super Gas, Graham Lite told Wheels Up Radio if enough racers spoke up, he would change the NHRA event tree back to .400. He said "it’s an easy change but though most racers needed the .370 to keep from going red." I won't comment on that statement but if you would like the older .400 tree. Please sign petition.

https://www.change.org/p/glight-nhra...tent=ex39%3Av5

Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree
 

Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree
 

Signed but now can I have some of the money back it took to make the car react that fast

Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree
 

?????

Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree
 

STK - basically the .90 cars always ran on a .400 / .500 Pro Tree, back in the mid 2000's the lights were changed over to LED's which in turn the eye sees faster then the regular iridescent bulbs. NHRA Had Compulink or Port-A-Tree or whatever the tracks use put a LED Compensation program into the computer program. They figured that with the eye seeing the bulb faster it was about a .030 faster so the X-Mas Trees became .370 / .470 with the speed up. It was also said that some of the PS / PSB Drivers were going Red and complaining about the tree so they sped up the tree to have them go green. In the mean time they never really told the sportsman guys they were going to change it either. When guys did find out it was changed it was like mid-season, so guys were changing four-links and shocks and tire pressure to attempt to hit the tree. As time went on and guys realized they needed a purpose built roadster to hit the tree or take the existing car and have it updated, a lot of guys bailed and went bracket racing or got out of racing all together. There is arguments for both sides of the coin as to what tree too use, some feel going back to a .400 tree may bring some racers back where as the guys who spent the money to hit the .370 tree then it was all for not.

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I really do not care which one they use I just want them to stay the same all weekend at the events.
I know for a fact it was changed from .400 to .370 during a race after time trials were complete and before eliminations for the Super Classes several years ago and after led's. I received the info from the person doing the light setup for NHRA that weekend after the race. I was told it was done to keep the Pro Stock Bikes from red lighting when they complained about it.
It was done with the electronics in the tower.
Following that race I never go to eliminations without adding to the delay box.
My 2 Cents
Rick Cates

Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree
 

Boy ,you guys just love to stir the pot don't you.
Anybody that thinks this will help car counts is fooling themselves , this about helping themselves !
You want a .400- .500 tree ?...Well then lets go back to the incandescent lights as well . .....Then lets see who is still on the tree !
I've held this in for a long time ,many racers have just gotten lazy and no longer work at the tree or their car .. ....Instead ,they want to change the tree to get a better light .
Racers need to realize Racing , as in life is not always equal . ....what do you do in life ? you work harder ,try harder . ....Racing should be the same way.
Instead of building a car for the class ,you want NHRA to change the rules to suit your car.
There are times I have a hard time on the .370LED tree , Gee ,what should I do ? I know ,I'll demand they change something till I have a .00 light ! NOT !
I go back and change the shock settings ,tire pressure ,4-link ,add ballast ,change launch rpm .
AND if that doesn't do it ,well I guess I'll put the snorkel on and dive it in !
This is NHRA Championship racing ,you have to earn that Wally , It ain't no "participation trophy" !

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Couldn't agree more

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I have a issue with the stage loc, that NHRA has implemented. Very few racers know about it. To me it is not right to have the stage loc. I run a clutch car, and I roll in to stage. I don't have a button that lockes the transmission in forward and reverse, so it won't go forward. I believe the tree should be just like the pros. The prestage bulb does not have to be lit to get a green lite.

Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree
 

Do you use the line lock and a brake pressure gauge to set enough brake drag to hold the car when staging?
That's what most clutch racers I know do and unless there is a problem with too little air gap, their cars usually stay rock solid on the line.
Stage Loc as I understand it only has to do with keeping the Staged light on if the car rolls slightly backward after the staging light is lit and locked in .

Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree
 

Yes, I have a line loc, and a brake pressure gauge, and I roll in to the light. The car has to roll so I don't run a lot of pressure, due to the fact I want the car to roll . And when you lite the second bulb, and push in the clutch, the car still rolls a little after. Went red once this year due to the top bulb going out, why I don't know. I did not roll in deep, but the top bulb is out and I am red. The prestage lite intention is to warn you, that you are close to the stage beam. That was the original thought. But now you have people shallow staging, and if the roll back out of the stage lite, the timing system will keep the bulb lit so they don't red. So now you can roll back out of the stage lite, and not go red, due to not staging properly, but if you let the prestage go out, you go red. So know you have this fear of letting the top bulb go out, so you shallow stage, which some cars,you will have a higher reaction time. This is about the .370 lite versus the .4 lite. All I want is make it the same as the pros. They can let the top bulb go out, and they don't go red. It is part of there starting line strategy, if they want. It kinda of dumb, that you can roll back out of the stage lite, and the NHRA fixes it so you won't go red. But if you let the prestage go out, you go red. I know that is the way the rules are, but it is not right.

Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree
 

Tom, I agree with your earlier comments 100%. My concern has always been, why is it when they make changes similar to this that no one is formally notified.
Maybe its me not paying attention however over the many years I have been pro tree .90 racing, I usually hear about these changes through the "grape vine". When I learned about this particular change (through the grape vine) I was in the middle of an event pulling my hair out trying to figure out is it me or the car. only to find out it was neither one. it was the tree change. Surprise Surprise!
When an association whether it be NHRA or whom ever advertises a .500 or .400 tree then it should be just that. If they change it for what ever reason then all members should be notified. (not through the vine)
Just saying.
PS, What tree does MASGA and MASSA use?

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Drew,

We use a .400 & .500 Tree in MASGA & MASSA. Its always been one of those "touchy" subjects with the series and one I dread every time someone brings it up. I did a poll in the off season and let the members vote on what tree they wanted. Only member who were signed up for points in 2016 & 2017 were allowed to vote. Super Comp was a landslide 27-5 in favor of the .370 tree that we currently use but, Super Gas & Super Street were a practical split, so I went to E-Town D1 race and talked with some of the racers who voted for the .370 / .470 tree just to ask their thoughts. It was mixed just like this conversation is and the Facebook petition is. A lot of the racers said they were "Not Happy" that the tree is at .370 but, since NHRA is the only game in town besides the series (Now that IHRA is defunct and that was a .400 / .500 tree) and it's a wally to win they suck it up and roll the dice and attend because as stated before it's very hard to go bracket racing with one of these cars in the format they are in. When I asked the members who voted for the .400 / .500 tree what would happen if we went to a .370 / .470 tree in the series a lot of people told me that they would be looking to possibly go bracket racing or IHRA Racing (This is before they dropped the bombshell about no more sportsman racers). I had to make the choice to do what is going to keep cars coming to the .90 events so we stayed with a .400 / .500 tree. I can tell you I have racers who have told me they would come to more D1 races if it was a .400 / .500 tree, Unfortunately, I think the people who sold / quit .90 racing some 10 years ago won't run out and buy a new car if the tree changes. I know from conversations at my events people like Dave Harvey Jr. & Sr., Jimmy Young, Mike Lauria and a few others said they would come play and I think it's not about getting the old people back but, maybe introducing it to bracket racers who always wanted to try it out but, knew they wouldn't be competitive.

I think a lot of racers were mad because as Drew said it was changed in mid-season. Like I said, I remember going to Maple Grove for the LODRS and we couldn't hit the tree with a cannon that weekend and we thought "The rollout is screwed up or the beams are raised" so we went to Atco for the LODRS and was in the same boat so we changed Shocks, Four-Links, Bought new tires from Hoosier, Changed Air Pressure, etc over two weekends of racing and beat our head against the wall. We go to a MASGA Race the following weekend and Lucky comes over and says "What Tree do you guys want? We were like what are you talking about Lucky and he told us...Oh yeah they changed the tree to a .370 tree." I think if they just came out on January 1st, 20-- and said Press Release "Beginning in the 20-- racing season due to us changing over to the LED Bulbs we are changing to a Led Compensated .370 / .470 Pro Tree." This way people knew what the heck was going on. I mean I try to keep everyone informed as to whats going on with the .90 Series.

Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree
 

Rob,
We too use the .500 tree for our NESSA program. No one ever complained or even brought it up that I can recall so I just let it be. Plus I think if we changed it to .470, we may loose a few cars that have been very successful foot braking on the pro tree. If it ain't broke I don't fix it. Your second paragraph explains exactly what I was getting at. Surprises are not acceptable when we all pay our membership and thousands of hard earned dollars to play. No matter when a change is made that would affect a racers performance, everyone should be notified before it is put in place. Imagine how many racers went home scratching their head. That's an expensive situation for all of us. I never complain much however that one really got me. Hell from what I understand the reason for the change was the Pro's not the sportsman. That being said why not just change the tree for the pros and leave the sportsman as it was. To me personally it makes little difference because I know my car really well (when it behaves) and have been fortunate enough to adjust back and fourth ever since they changed it so its easy for me. Others maybe not so much. As Tom said, each of us has to work hard at our race program to be even close to a winner and that is the way it should be as long as the organization plays in a level manner. Interesting to hear many different opinions which is why I like this forum.

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I agree with you 100%.
If the clubs like MASGA etc. want to use a 400 tree to get a few more entries, that is fine. If you want to run with the big dogs at the NHRA divisionals and nationals, make the car work for the class your racing.

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Am I wrong or is this change no where in the NHRA rulebook ? I have only heard of it by word of mouth !

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It's only been at .370 for Fourteen years .....It didn't just happen.

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Tom,

Obviously since 14 years has passed since the .370 tree came into existence and people are still questioning "we're on a .370 tree??" it wasn't communicated very well. Here is what is in the 2018 rulebook under Super Gas:

Super Gas cars race on a 9.90 standard (6.30 for eighth-mile
tracks) using a heads-up, .4-second Pro Tree. Reserved for
full-body cars with full fenders, hood, grille, top, windshield,
and functional doors.

So someone who is brand new to Super Gas and doesn't read all the message boards or go on Facebook very often but, use the NHRA Rulebook as the bible would have no clue what tree your running on. It's just a form of communication that is all.

It's easy to say:
Super Gas cars race on a 9.90 standard (6.30 for eighth-mile
tracks) using a heads-up, .4-second Pro Tree (.030 LED Compensation)

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Oh I knew about it.but the point is if you where doing something illegal and got caught,they would say it's against the rules-read the rulebook.

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If the the rule book states .400/.500 then that's what it should be. Us in Super Street with fully suspended cars have a hard time hitting the .470 tree. The really fast cars can always just add numbers to the delay box to slow their car's reaction to hit the .400/.500 tree. We suspended cars don't have the luxury to be able to speed up the cars reaction time like the supergas/supercomp cars. Just because the pros have a hard time with the tree, doesn't mean us sportsman cars should have to have the opposite problem. Especially at divisional races where the pros don't even run!

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Well Said!
And to get back to Gary's original question, I personally think NHRA (or any organization that runs .90 pro tree) would have more to gain by going back to the format of .400 and .500 tree at all events and races. This would bring back or bring in new and past racers that are on the cutting edge of hitting the tree in their perspective class. Just my opinion.

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The problem is changing timers in the system and you don't know where your at. Certain tracks I have a hard time getting a 20, and certain tracks I have a hard time not going red. What is the difference, they are both NHRA tracks. Leave things where they are. The only thing you achieve for sure is you will get more red lites, . They changed the rules back about 20 some years ago for people, and I came out on the short end. I really don't understand what they accomplished then. Except racers were concerned about this or that, and pushed the issue, and changed the rules. Steve Williams S/G 351N. It is a 3 pedal car too.

Re: .370 back to .400 Pro Tree
 

Just looked through NHRA 2018 rule book.
It still shows in section 9, page 1 for Super Gas, .4 second pro tree.
Also on page VIII, NHRA National Event Starting Line Pro Start System states .4 seconds between flash of yellow and the green. Since it is in the rule book already, and there is no amendment listed stating it is a miss-print and the .370 tree is correct, it must be a .4 tree. Why is there a need to "ask permission" to go back to the .4 tree ? NHRA needs to follow their rule book, to the letter like they require the racers to follow.

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I think nhra needs to take a vote, like they did a few years ago, on changing the indexs. I guess if you want to give everyone a chance, make it one second between the yelloe and the green, that way even the studebakers have a chance. I don't run a delay box, so if they add more time, I Will probably retire. I will not put a delay box, or throttle control box in my car.

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Use to be super Street was 2500 pound minimum, and they had .4 tenths pro tree. They changed that, now we have 150+ 10.90 cars

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Sounds like you are on the wrong forum then , you seem to be more in tune with the 8.50 ,10.0 and 11.50"index class " racers......Plenty of those races out there .
If you want to race on "The Big Stage " It requires hard work and dedication. .....The constant Bull about ,I don't have a Roadster, I don't have a big engine , I don't have a big budget is just an excuse . ....I know many racers without any of those that are competitive .
Any voting on Class Index's and tree sequence times should be voted on by racers who actually compete and support the class , not just someone who paid a few bucks for a number and races once a year at their local track because they can't race Brackets that week because the NHRA is there.
How may who want to change everything to suit their cars will actually show up for all 7 Division races ? ....My guess is not many .
I find it both amusing and amazing that after more than a decade after NHRA changed the tree that this is even an issue.

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Wow, sorry I ruffled your feathers Tom. I know you are a hitter and do go rounds in Div 1. And no, I don't have a roadster like you, and no I don't have a big motor, and not I don't have a big budget. Leave the tree alone. You go changing the rules or the tree, then people have to make changes. The guys with boxes, just add or subtract. No I don't have a box. Any yes I went to all the divisional this year in my division. And I don't think I am legal for the 8.50 class. The only class I am legal in is super gas , super comp,. Super pro is messed up because NHRA changed the tree for box racers, so they could top bulb race after about a 1.2 second delay. Do you run you car all out? Or do you throttle choke it. I should have looked you up this year at the US NATS, but everyone can enter that race if you have a grading of one. I hope we meet so.e day and I will like to shake your hand, and introduce my self. I know, I just don't want things changed for a group of people who don't race the class. Look at the car that won the championship, this year AWESOME. All the cars that compete are awesome.

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How many cars in the top ten are not roadsters in the Lucas National points. I know of one a Camaro, and he told me he don't run a throttle control, but does have a delay box, and yes he has three pedals also.

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I do know a guy out of div 1 that runs super Street in a mustang. I don't believe he has a box of any type in his car, and his car looks almost stock. I usually see him once a year, usually at Columbus. There was a guy who won the national championship about five years ago in a Vega. Not a hi mph car. You know him, I bet.

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You did pretty good last year Tom. Hope you have a better year this coming year. You know what I am saying.

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Gary look what you started!!! LOL

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I just voiced an opinion that was put out there. Tom IS one of the good guys who absolutely paid and pays his dues every yr. in .90. as well as Kathy also makes a killer margerita.

I have no problem working on my car to get it right for whatever class i run it in. I didnt propose this but I personally could take advantage if implimented.

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Look guys , I don't mean any disrespect , but you have to look at it from the perspective of the racers who have dedicated their program to competing in these classes......Those of you who know me, know I will help anyone with making their car work better on the tree , often in the process creating my own assassins !
Racing has evolved ,for better or worse. ...We can argue about the semantics of the wording in the rule book all we want .We all know what the lights really are.
Divisional and National event level racing has ALWAYS challenged racers with the challenge to improve their cars and their driving abilities .....some are successful, some keep trying, some give up ........The point is this level of racing is not for everybody, be it their skill set or financial ability ,or family obligations. which is why local Super Class and Stock/Super Stock organizations are doing well . ....They are free to set the rules a little looser such as the tree or weight brakes or heads up runs.

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Gary, I was just Bustin your B--lz!! I agree Tom and Kathy are a first class example of what makes our sport so enjoyable. Just flat out good people! And yes Tom is a master craftsmen. In fact he as done some really nice work on my car not to mention provided me with some valuable advise which I am grateful for. There is no doubt this is why he is in the points position he is in today. Most of us know this Sh-t don't come easy so well earned Tom! We all have our opinions and are entitled to voice them on this forum. We don't have to agree with each other.
Tom, I recommend three Margaritas then jump back on the forum. Just kidding my friend!

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Let’s back up a little, no offense at all. This is just conversation. I will be hitting some of the .90 series this year, in S/C.

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Hey Maverick, I run super Street, and I don't have a delay box, or a throttle stop, or electric operated shifter on my car because I refuse to be a monkey and let the electronics do the racing for me. I like the human element to be involved in my racing. I use a throttle limiter on the back of the carb linkage to try and run the number, so I'm under power all the way down the track. The only electronic device I have is a trans brake to be able to react to the tree. Call it old school, but at least I'M controlling my car, not the electronics. No offense meant towards the other racers, just my way of still reacting to the tree, manually shifting the car, and playing the finish line game. I pride myself on still running a fully suspended "Street Car" inspected, registered and insured by the way, in Super Street. Those of us using this type of set up, could really use the real.500 tree as we have a hard time hitting the. 470 tree. Again, those of you using a box can just push some numbers to slow down your reaction. We are limited on ways to speed the cars reaction to the .470 tree. If the rule book states .500 tree, then it should be a .500 tree, period! Again just my thoughts, take for what it's worth. Still love racing at the divisional, and limited national events, and will continue to do so as long as it's still fun.

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You nailed it.

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Just so you know, my car does not have a delay box, or a throttle stop/ controller. I do have a auto shifter. My car does have three pedals, and it is not a high mph car. I struggle with the tree at times, but I can usually point to the track I am at. Some tracks I have a had time getting a .02, and other tracks I have a hard time not going red. Year after year it is consistent, that I have the same rt at the same tracks. They change the rules or timing system, and it is not common knowledge. Probably because it would cause confusion, in trying to explain why. I had more questions this year with division director and division tech guy, and also with the national tech guy, asking questions and looking for answers. The things I did not know about were, Stage Loc, first round bye selection, and burn downs at the starting line. There were other questions, about grading points. I just have questions as why, . When they had incandescent lights, it was a little harder to get a light. I guess when they went to led lights, everyone thought you seen them faster. Just look at the cars, at the top of the points, they are awesome. I try to admire them, and understand what they are doing. Good luck to you

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Gary posted this in multiple forums. I responded on YB with my scenario. Back when they changed the lights at the National events we still had a true .500 at the Divisional level. Some of us go race a National and cant hit the tree. Then they changed it across the board without telling us. I spoke multiple times with an SRAC member but never got a clear answer. I got tired of bumping in to cut a light in 2011 and took a break. I spent 6 grand building a new front suspension and now I can leave soft with numbers in the box.

Like someone said NHRA should follow their own rules.

Will this change bring back old racers ? Who knows ?

Would it open it up for new racers ? Maybe.

Here's a little food for thought. This is happening at the same time as the dissolve of IHRA .90 classes.They can come race NHRA without rebuilding their whole car to do so.

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Also I think they should put it out there for a vote amongst the racers. I voted to lower the indexes when they did that. It was a landslide to keep it .90. Just my 2 cents guys