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randy wilson 10-10-2011 07:45 AM

ceramic bearings
 
Do ceramic bearings actually help performance, or no? This topic came up the other day. Your comments please.

Jeff Lee 10-10-2011 10:34 AM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Im getting them for my front wheel bearings and rear end bearings. I'm looking to see MPH not ET gains. But no, I have no actual experience with these.

mtkawboy 10-10-2011 03:52 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
The 200 mph plus bikes at Bonneville all use them. I cant speak for the cars but they must work, but they arent cheap.

Pvt Parts 10-10-2011 08:50 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mtkawboy (Post 287127)
The 200 mph plus bikes at Bonneville all use them. I cant speak for the cars but they must work, but they arent cheap.


Anything and everything you can do to reduce drag is worth et. I had the first all roller bearing 4 speed in SS and it was worth et. I probably had the first ball bearing carrier in comp and my car would roll in the staging lanes when others would not. I had unknown "helpers" who would comment on how easy my car was to push. (In A/SM at 3,000 lbs.)

I have a friend who works on an IRL team. (One of the top qualifiers) They (IRL) only allow ceramic bearings on the right rear because of the cost. Otherwise the well funded teams would have them on all four corners. Cost.... $17,000 for the RR. If you wanna be fast, no stone goes unturned. You do it all. Does that answer your question???

randy wilson 10-11-2011 08:05 AM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Yes. Thanks, but I believe I'll pass at this time. A little too spendy if they cost that much.

Jeff Lee 10-11-2011 03:33 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
They don't cost $17,000 for a passenger car. Indy or F1 cars are another breed of car!
Call Jack & get a quote.

Mark Yacavone 10-11-2011 03:45 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Might as well get them.
Space -age, exotic, composite, non OEM type parts are legal in Stock now.

Pvt Parts 10-11-2011 04:43 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee (Post 287311)
They don't cost $17,000 for a passenger car. Indy or F1 cars are another breed of car!
Call Jack & get a quote.


Not really. Just a different design. The same technology that applies to those cars applies to these cars as well. Take your pick.... carbon fiber, titanium, ceramics, aerodynamics, lubricants, fluid dynamics, and on and on. Just like carbon fiber brakes. I don't know what they cost now but I bought them when they were $3,300.00. Money well spent. I had a titanium bell housing in SS back in 1989 before they were ruled out.

Ceramic bearings are relatively old technology. Back in the '80's a friend of mine worked at shop that build small turbine power plants for the US Military similar to the ones used in cruise missiles. He put me onto them back then. If you want the latest and greatest, the lightest and fastest, start looking at F1, IRL, NASCAR, Military and Space technology. By the time most of the Sportsman racers find out about it, it's old news.

ShadowLands 10-12-2011 02:17 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Rear axle bearings from Performance Bearings are just over $210 each. Pinion assemblies range from $877 to just under $1K. Carrier bearings around $600 for the set. I got a quote for doing angular contact bearings for the front hubs (Mustang II stuff) at $550 per set.

For the class I'm building this car for I'm thinking it is well worth the cost.

daninline 10-13-2011 07:49 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
used to inline speedskate in the early 90's and one kid got them and they made a lot of noise but dam he would just roll away from everyone. then they sold them to everyone they owned a shop

eddie c 10-14-2011 10:25 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
If you could only afford one set of ceramic bearings, which set would give
you the biggest advantage? ed:confused:

Jeff Lee 10-15-2011 11:39 AM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
My GUESS would be rear end. I have a Dana 60 with all MW parts. I'm about to get the Performance bearings package for the entire rear. I just need the shop to narrow the axle tubes, put new ends on it and get final measurements so I can get the new axles ordered. Previous axles were MW 40 spline with 11/16" rifle bore. New axles will be MW 40 spline with 1 1/16" rifle bore and 300M material. I'm also changing from 5:13 ratio to 5.86 ratio. Both the old and new ring gear are back-cut. The R&P will be coated (see last paragraph).
I'll take a measurement of torque to rotate the pinion before and after and post the results here. I'm not sure how or if I should measure torque at the axle? Don't expect this next week, this shop is slower than molasses! But we had a long talk yesterday and he's made a commitment to get the chassis & engine done by the end of this year. I'll believe it when I see it but I'm making a big push. I will push real hard to get the Dana up and ready to run. That also involves setting the engine / trans in the car with new motor plates to determine positioning of the Dana and axle size left & right. I'm not sure what MW's lead time is on these 300M axles. So just pushing for the rear-end to be completed will get the chassis well on the way to completion.

FYI - Same shop has had a hand in a customers vintage 4-cylinder road race car. After using a propriety coating on all bearings and bushings from front to rear (spindles, trans, rear), the car reduced lap times by 8 seconds. That's huge. He also believes that true ceramic bearings would be better yet.

Chris Barnes 10-15-2011 01:01 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
I know that top of the line professional bicycles use ceramic bearings. The general consensus is that they are worth it if you must keep up with the Joneses with a big budget but that there are generally a few better ways to spend money for regular folks.

Chris Barnes
Wagons of Steel
Stock 6621

Jeff Lee 10-15-2011 01:45 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barnes (Post 287981)
I know that top of the line professional bicycles use ceramic bearings. The general consensus is that they are worth it if you must keep up with the Joneses with a big budget but that there are generally a few better ways to spend money for regular folks.

Chris Barnes
Wagons of Steel
Stock 6621

I got on this kick when I took apart my son's fancy looking bike purchased from Wal-Mart. I wanted to see if I could make it faster. So I looked at the bearings and I was going to put synthetic grease in crank. The bearings and cage looked like sand cast bearings and the cage was a folded over piece of junk. Then I went to a bike shop and saw what the more expensive bikes used. And we're talking the $350 kids bikes over the $79 Wal-Mart bikes; not the high end race bikes. Night and day difference. Now I know why I get on my Wal-Mart Mtn. bike I'm huffing and puffing in a few blocks but when I try the other guys $800 bikes it's enjoyable.
But yes, I'm sure $$ can be spent elsewhere for better gains and if it's not in the budget, then that takes care of that. But then again I see people spend $20K on an engine and cry like a baby over spending $2,000 to $3,000 on a clutch that will actually let the car perform like it should.

Chris Barnes 10-15-2011 02:25 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
It's just one more example of how a race car or bike is the some of it's parts.

Jumping on a nice bike after a crappy one is impressive. I think the biggest gain on a bike is the light wheels. If you could fit Lance Armstrong's wheels on your Huffy you would be amazed. Hold a heavy wheel in your hand and spin it, it will pull you around the room. Do the same with a light wheel and feel the difference. Of course you would also notice the better bearings during this experiment.

Speaking of bearings, wouldn't changing over to ball bearings and lighter lube accomplish much of what we're trying to get from the ceramics?

Chris Barnes
Wagons of Steel
Stock 6621

Pvt Parts 10-16-2011 02:59 AM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee (Post 287963)
My GUESS would be rear end. I have a Dana 60 with all MW parts. I'm about to get the Performance bearings package for the entire rear. I just need the shop to narrow the axle tubes, put new ends on it and get final measurements so I can get the new axles ordered. Previous axles were MW 40 spline with 11/16" rifle bore. New axles will be MW 40 spline with 1 1/16" rifle bore and 300M material. I'm also changing from 5:13 ratio to 5.86 ratio. Both the old and new ring gear are back-cut. The R&P will be coated (see last paragraph).
I'll take a measurement of torque to rotate the pinion before and after and post the results here. I'm not sure how or if I should measure torque at the axle? Don't expect this next week, this shop is slower than molasses! But we had a long talk yesterday and he's made a commitment to get the chassis & engine done by the end of this year. I'll believe it when I see it but I'm making a big push. I will push real hard to get the Dana up and ready to run. That also involves setting the engine / trans in the car with new motor plates to determine positioning of the Dana and axle size left & right. I'm not sure what MW's lead time is on these 300M axles. So just pushing for the rear-end to be completed will get the chassis well on the way to completion.

FYI - Same shop has had a hand in a customers vintage 4-cylinder road race car. After using a propriety coating on all bearings and bushings from front to rear (spindles, trans, rear), the car reduced lap times by 8 seconds. That's huge. He also believes that true ceramic bearings would be better yet.


If you are spending that much money, why didn't you just put a new 9" under the car with an alum center.

Jeff Lee 10-16-2011 03:46 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
A) I never see a Dana break & I see 9" break. I've been through 3 different gear sets & they always look like new.
B) Bearings are going to be the same one way or another.
C) I'm pretty sure the frictional loss is greater on a 9".
If I were into changing gears a lot, then a 9" would wipe out the other reasons.

Jeff Lee 10-16-2011 04:03 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Oops

randy wilson 10-18-2011 08:14 AM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
OK, now that we established this thread, the reason I started it was because a very well known, and successful comp racer told me he spent $ 20,000 on ceramic and never gained a thing. And I know he was trying to help, not lead us astray. What say everyone now. He said don't waste ur time or money.

Pvt Parts 10-19-2011 08:40 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee (Post 288147)
A) I never see a Dana break & I see 9" break. I've been through 3 different gear sets & they always look like new.
B) Bearings are going to be the same one way or another.
C) I'm pretty sure the frictional loss is greater on a 9".
If I were into changing gears a lot, then a 9" would wipe out the other reasons.



No Comment.

Jeff Lee 10-20-2011 12:00 AM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by randy wilson (Post 288557)
OK, now that we established this thread, the reason I started it was because a very well known, and successful comp racer told me he spent $ 20,000 on ceramic and never gained a thing. And I know he was trying to help, not lead us astray. What say everyone now. He said don't waste ur time or money.

Then if he said it was so, follow his advice, don't make your own decisions and don't waste your money.
The internet is full of experts.

By the way, did you read what I posted about the little road racer decreasing his lap times by EIGHT seconds with only a full treatment of a ceramic COATING on wheel bearings, transmission components and rear end components? Do you realize how much money it would cost in engine R&D to reduce lap times by 8 second on a road course? That's probably like you gaining a half-second in your drag car.
Have you gone to the Performance Bearing website? You'll find there are many grades of ceramic bearings. When a guy tells me he spent $20K on bearings, it doesn't always mean he spent the money on the best parts. Maybe he did though, I don't know. But I know this for a fact. I've seen guys spend boo-koo bucks on trick parts and still it takes three or four guys to push the car in the staging lanes. All the trick parts in the world won't fix that problem. The real problem must be addressed before looking at any "trick" parts.
Personally, I could care less what John Force or Warren Johnson has to say about a parts merits. I do my own thinking and roll my own dice.

Jeff Lee 10-20-2011 01:05 AM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pvt Parts (Post 288900)
No Comment.

I should never say never! Yes, I have seen Dana 60's spit out gears over the years. Nothing is infallible. Of course there's always "the rest of the story" and we'll never know if the parts had a million runs on them, were not set up correctly or the clutch was better suited for a dump truck than a race car. But I'll stick to saying I've seen more broken 9" rears than Dana's.

I looked at PerformanceBearing.com and he has 9" bearings listed but not Dana bearings. They will make any bearing you want if not listed. The 40 spline MW axle bearings are $210 a pair and that would be true if a 9" or Dana.

Door car front wheel bearings are shown as $550 approximate (I think it was $542); that's per pair. Pricing is based on application. My AMX spindle bearings cross reference to '67 (and other year) Mustang bearings. So I'm assuming a pair of wheel bearings will be in that price range for my AMX. I haven't called yet. Lamb spindle kits were around $650.

Finally, I did some research on the net. As I said, I don't follow every theory "just because so and so said so" but here's what Evan Smith apparently found:

Numbers published by Evan Smith in National Dragster show that because of the reduced offset between the pinion shaft axis and the axle centerline, the Dana 60 has LOWER drivetrain losses than either the 12-bolt or the 9-inch:

Dana 60: 5%
GM 12-Bolt: 7%
Ford 9-inch: 10%

And yes, there is as much contradictory evidence as supporting evidence on the web regarding frictional losses.

Jeff Lee 10-20-2011 01:12 AM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barnes (Post 287993)
It's just one more example of how a race car or bike is the some of it's parts.

Jumping on a nice bike after a crappy one is impressive. I think the biggest gain on a bike is the light wheels. If you could fit Lance Armstrong's wheels on your Huffy you would be amazed. Hold a heavy wheel in your hand and spin it, it will pull you around the room. Do the same with a light wheel and feel the difference. Of course you would also notice the better bearings during this experiment.

Speaking of bearings, wouldn't changing over to ball bearings and lighter lube accomplish much of what we're trying to get from the ceramics?

Chris Barnes
Wagons of Steel
Stock 6621

Back to my kids bike. I used synthetic grease and because the bearings and cages looked like they were pounded out in a sand pit in China, I saw no difference.
I've used Torco rear lube in my Dana and as I've said, it always looks new. I've also used Lubrication Engineering (?) sold by Lamb. It's good, it's very expensive and I saw a MPH increase. Not much but is was definitely there. I did go as high as 126 in D/S.
Something worked!

BlueOval Ralph 10-20-2011 07:39 AM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
This load vs losses has alot of holes it really depends on how input load you are using (no load vs 500 lb-ft) at no load a 9 inch would show more lose than say 500 lb-ft the 9" has less then as the whole gear Assm is locked down pinion has god front carrier bearings bad a pinion tail support the spool has the billet caps and the solid spanners. If I were building a new 9" center today I would use the High strengh steel case that Strange has and Ford the NASCAR teams are using these cases about 2 to 3 lbs lighter than the Nodular but a little maybee 8 heavier than alum. But everything will stay in place and not move!


QUOTE=Jeff Lee;288933]I should never say never! Yes, I have seen Dana 60's spit out gears over the years. Nothing is infallible. Of course there's always "the rest of the story" and we'll never know if the parts had a million runs on them, were not set up correctly or the clutch was better suited for a dump truck than a race car. But I'll stick to saying I've seen more broken 9" rears than Dana's.

I looked at PerformanceBearing.com and he has 9" bearings listed but not Dana bearings. They will make any bearing you want if not listed. The 40 spline MW axle bearings are $210 a pair and that would be true if a 9" or Dana.

Door car front wheel bearings are shown as $550 approximate (I think it was $542); that's per pair. Pricing is based on application. My AMX spindle bearings cross reference to '67 (and other year) Mustang bearings. So I'm assuming a pair of wheel bearings will be in that price range for my AMX. I haven't called yet. Lamb spindle kits were around $650.

Finally, I did some research on the net. As I said, I don't follow every theory "just because so and so said so" but here's what Evan Smith apparently found:

Numbers published by Evan Smith in National Dragster show that because of the reduced offset between the pinion shaft axis and the axle centerline, the Dana 60 has LOWER drivetrain losses than either the 12-bolt or the 9-inch:

Dana 60: 5%
GM 12-Bolt: 7%
Ford 9-inch: 10%

And yes, there is as much contradictory evidence as supporting evidence on the web regarding frictional losses.[/QUOTE]

Ed Wright 10-20-2011 07:43 AM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
I knew I wanted a 12 bolt over a 9", but am surprised at the Dana 60. Still a lot of un-sprung wt.

69Cobra 10-20-2011 11:21 AM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueOval Ralph (Post 288956)
This load vs losses has alot of holes it really depends on how input load you are using (no load vs 500 lb-ft) at no load a 9 inch would show more lose than say 500 lb-ft the 9" has less then as the whole gear Assm is locked down pinion has god front carrier bearings bad a pinion tail support the spool has the billet caps and the solid spanners. If I were building a new 9" center today I would use the High strengh steel case that Strange has and Ford the NASCAR teams are using these cases about 2 to 3 lbs lighter than the Nodular but a little maybee 8 heavier than alum. But everything will stay in place and not move!


Can you run an aftermarket Nodular case in Stock? I just got off skype from talking to my dad about putting together a new third member so I'm just wondering?

Jeff Lee 10-20-2011 12:32 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Yes.

Rory McNeil 10-20-2011 01:44 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Wright (Post 288958)
I knew I wanted a 12 bolt over a 9", but am surprised at the Dana 60. Still a lot of un-sprung wt.

Maybe not as much differance as you might think. On my mid-low 10 second, 3200 lb bracket car, I used to have a fairly basic 9" (unbraced OE housing, OE Ford "N" case, 33 spline Strange axles & steel spool). About 11 or 12 years ago, I decided to switch the car from a trans braked 3 speed automatic (C6 Ford), to a Jerico 4 speed. A buddy builds diffs for a living, and suggested that my existing 9" was marginal with the stick, and after comparing the cost to upgrade my 9", (new braced housing, aftermarket case, 35 spline spool & axles), we elected to sell the 9" and go with a Dana 60. The housing is a thick tube 3/4 truck core, with Ford ends, 35 spline Strange spool & axles, billet bearing caps, and aT/A load bolt cover. I used the same brake as the 9" had. Weight difference? The Dana was 6 lbs heavier, BUT, if I had went with a steel aftermarket case, braced the housing, and added the larger axles and spool to the 9", it would have likely added at least those 6 lbs. So pretty much a draw. Now granted, an aluminum case, and fabricated sheetmetal housing would have reduced the 9" a fair bit, but then if I had replaced the Danas heavy truck axle tubes to chrome moly tubes, ...., but this is just a bracket car, so why bother? The only downsides I see are the 9" does have a much better selection of gear ratios available, and if you have the $$$ laying around to have multiple complete "chunks" on hand, obviously gear changes are faster & easier. That said, when my buddy did a ratio change on the Dana in his shop, the old 4.88 Pro gears still looked perfect after 10 seasons of 62-6600 RPM clutch drops, and they were used when I got them! I have no regrets with the Dana 60 swap. By the way, I was able to sell my complete old 9" for enough to pay for the Dana.

Jeff Lee 10-21-2011 12:08 AM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
At one time I ran 4.88's in my AMX. I bought the R&P used from John Dourlet who had literally hundreds of runs on them behind his A/S '64 Savoy Max Wedge car. The looked perfect when I got them and when I changed to steeper gears in my X, they still looked perfect.
I do have CM axle tubes, MW caps, and back-cut ring gear along, MW lite-weight steel spool with and a T/A cover. I remember when Don Little changed out the 8 3/4 in his 'Cuda to a Dana 60 when he put the Hemi in it, he only picked up about a dozen pounds.

69Cobra 10-21-2011 04:07 AM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee (Post 289011)
Yes.

Thanks. That opens up some options for me.

Damn Yankee 08-15-2013 11:11 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee (Post 288933)
I should never say never! Yes, I have seen Dana 60's spit out gears over the years. Nothing is infallible. Of course there's always "the rest of the story" and we'll never know if the parts had a million runs on them, were not set up correctly or the clutch was better suited for a dump truck than a race car. But I'll stick to saying I've seen more broken 9" rears than Dana's.

I looked at PerformanceBearing.com and he has 9" bearings listed but not Dana bearings. They will make any bearing you want if not listed. The 40 spline MW axle bearings are $210 a pair and that would be true if a 9" or Dana.

Door car front wheel bearings are shown as $550 approximate (I think it was $542); that's per pair. Pricing is based on application. My AMX spindle bearings cross reference to '67 (and other year) Mustang bearings. So I'm assuming a pair of wheel bearings will be in that price range for my AMX. I haven't called yet. Lamb spindle kits were around $650.

Finally, I did some research on the net. As I said, I don't follow every theory "just because so and so said so" but here's what Evan Smith apparently found:

Numbers published by Evan Smith in National Dragster show that because of the reduced offset between the pinion shaft axis and the axle centerline, the Dana 60 has LOWER drivetrain losses than either the 12-bolt or the 9-inch:

Dana 60: 5%
GM 12-Bolt: 7%
Ford 9-inch: 10%

And yes, there is as much contradictory evidence as supporting evidence on the web regarding frictional losses.

Putting together a class car where we are restricted to 8.8 or 9" Ford. Well, we can use a 7.5 too but I am really question the strength so I am not even considering it. Most everyone runs the 8.8 as it said to be more efficient than a traditional 9". However, gear ratio choices are limited and there are also no 8.8 pro gears. Have made a few calls to Wayne at Indy Gear, M/W's, and others who believe the 9" is the better route. Question is, can I make the 9" as efficient or better than the 8.8 using ceramic bearings in the pinion support, and in the carrier ?

ss wannabee 08-18-2013 10:25 AM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Not to split hairs...but I thought the GM 12-bolt was regarded as the MOST efficient
rear end for many years...

That would explain why I saw several SS/AA cars sporting 'em when I last went to
Indy back in the mid-'90's!

But then again...maybe they were in there...because they were the lightest axle
assembly of the 3 types?

Damn Yankee 08-19-2013 02:39 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ss wannabee (Post 395216)
Not to split hairs...but I thought the GM 12-bolt was regarded as the MOST efficient
rear end for many years...

That would explain why I saw several SS/AA cars sporting 'em when I last went to
Indy back in the mid-'90's!

But then again...maybe they were in there...because they were the lightest axle
assembly of the 3 types?

Yes I have been told the 12" is the most efficient, however it is not allowed in this class

Dwight Southerland 08-19-2013 03:48 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
The 8.8 and the 12 bolt are twinkies.

Damn Yankee 01-25-2014 07:01 AM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Not trying to split hairs, but is there any measurable performance advantage between a ceramic angular contact bearing for the front spindle's vs a full roller ceramic bearing ?

Also is there any data showing where the angular contact bearing is less safe than a full roller bearing when upgrading to ceramics ?

I ask because the brake manufacture we are working with is giving us fits and telling us the angular ceramic bearing is unsafe with our particular spindles (1991 Mustang). I have a hard time believing this when I know there are stockers and super stockers out there in excess of 3500lbs using this very bearing. Our race weight will be 3150lbs.

Adger Smith 01-25-2014 12:16 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
I have wondered the same thing about the front bearings. Is there a load difference even on steel angular bearings when coming down off a wheelie. I look at tooling everday that is held in place by the locking friction of angles. When an angled bearing has load applied I would think it has to create a little more friction than any ball type bearing, just by design. Then there is the question about wheelies and the loading on ceramic bearings. Are they fragile?

Ed, why not put a Strange 12 bolt drop out in a 9" housing instead of replacing 9" housing with a 12 bolt housing. Class legal?

Adger Smith 01-25-2014 12:23 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
oops!

Damn Yankee 01-25-2014 04:22 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adger Smith (Post 418040)
Ed, why not put a Strange 12 bolt drop out in a 9" housing instead of replacing 9" housing with a 12 bolt housing. Class legal?

I ended up with a brand new Dewco piece from a friend who was getting out and selling everything. It had every bell and option including ceramics with a Lamb support, and the price was right for me and it helped him. Only down side is the 5:22 gears will be too much as we are RPM limited at 7700, even with the 28.5 tall tires so I will need to do a gear swap.

Thanks, Andy

Wade_Owens 01-28-2014 01:23 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ss wannabee (Post 395216)

That would explain why I saw several SS/AA cars sporting 'em when I last went to
Indy back in the mid-'90's!

1 Very fast SS/AA used a 10 bolt Chevy.

Wade

FED 387 01-28-2014 03:30 PM

Re: ceramic bearings
 
Andy sent u a PM---FED387


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