Roller Rockers in Stock
 

Some have suggested that roller rockers be allowed on all cars in stock to reduce breakage.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

Let's just move to Super Stock and get it over with.

Or better yet, go race IHRA. Nothing against IHRA, but the rule is already there.

Stop changing the rules (or trying to change the rules)!

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

Bill
I am with you 100% , but what I think is the bigger picture is the eventual combining of classes into a new super stock . It's a shame we either keep our cars the way they are right now or we will all suffer the consequences.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

Well said Bill
If you keep changing it there will be no more stock(I am sure some feel there isnt now....)

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

I made the change and ran the roller deal and it made no difference what so ever. I think it might have fell off:) Stamped steel forever!!

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

I know the stock stamped steel rockers are what is legal in stock and I also realize that the more after market parts allowed, the closer stock gets to super stock. However, when considering the cost of an engine due to rocker arm failure, for that reason I am for changing the rules and allowing after market rocker arms. I also know stock rocker arms will perform as well as after market. The only reason I would consider changing to after market rocker arms is they are much stronger and they last for years.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

I'll add a little more (don't kill me). Not everyone runs a small block chevy...that being said rockers are or can be very hard to find. My 230 I6 the only way I could get rocker arms for it was go to NAPA I could get a box with a rocker piviot ball & nut. I would have to order about 3 dozen to get a set that was close...even then I had the cam grinder grind in extra lift to get it close to what was legal! Of course they make roller rockers for the inline.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

I have a bucket of NOS AMC rockers. Once I found a source, I bought everything the guy had. I found the aftermarket rockers (standard replacement, Sealed Power, TRW, etc.) we're not built with the same rockwell hardness as per OEM and as a result, they would pull the cup out of the base (were the rocker ball sits. AMC rocker is virtuall identical in appearance to SBC, just longer) almost immediately. Cryogenic treatment did not help. Neither did heat treatments and coatings. The NOS units faired much better and didn't require prep work. Ever hear the phrase "old iron is better than old iron"?
And I've talked to plenty of racer's on this subject. It's a problem with BBC, Fords of all sizes, AMC, GM...basically anything that uses a stamped rocker that rides on a stud. As I said on the other post regarding this subject, there are cure's for some makes. But you might spend 3x the cost of a set of Crane Gold roller rockers.
What's really intersting to me is the lack of responses to the post I made regarding "killer" valve-train parts and costs elsewhere on this forum.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

We're not killing rockers. We broke a stud before we put the Holroyd stuff on but no rockers. We've got over 2 years on these. Yes, we run killer springs. We might break a rocker today, but we haven't yet. But yes, the stud caused catastrophic damage, we lost a whole engine.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

I know a lot of people against roller rockers but why not use the hydraulic roller rockers from Comp. Cams and not the mech. roller rockers. I think the way prices are for building these motors and gas to get to the track we should all vote for reliablity keeping things together and not worry about stock class cars are knocking on the door of super stock! my 2 cents! also we should allow larger studs because of spring pressures. And another thing if you want to run pure stock they have it in IHRA. Not trying to start trouble just my say.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

I think we are talking about roller rockers vice OE rockers, not roller lifters vice flat tappet. However, I still feel the same...QUIT CHANGING THE RULES...or go Super Stock racing!

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

When they let the valve job rule go, not much was mentioned about it. Mention roller rockers and suddenly we are becoming Super Stockers. If people were suggesting allowing any ratio, I would agree, but there is a negligible performance improvement going to rollers of the same ratio. IHRA has already gone this way, as far as I can tell there hasn't been a drastic drop in ETs as a result.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

We cannot change the past (unless your into revisionist history), but we can affect the future...STOP THE RULE CHANGES...or go race Super (Pro) StocK, or bracket race with no rules!

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

This poll should be in the competition member section. If you don't have a $15,000+ engine to blow up and oil the track delaying everybodys racing, you shouldn't vote in this poll. The train left years ago as far as what was stock.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

Great point!

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

No on roller rockers, get a cam with a softer ramp and you will reduce the breakage. there are other ways to keep the rockers breaking besides using Jessel rockers. Besides Jeff, you race super stock you dont have a dog in this fight anymore. I wouldn't think it would matter to you.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

Wow. Where's my Holroyd stuff???

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

Still have a Stock number and am involved with several Stockers, including another '70 AMX with my old engine. And I do agree, with a softer ramp you will lessen the breakage. But then again, you will go slower. That's based on my experience anyways.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

No roller rockers, I have Holyrod stuff and a great engine builder, rev that monster to 8,000 in B/SA and no breakage (yet). We had roughly 20 A-B-C cars over the weekend at a D-1 race and did not hear of one broken rocker on the big blocks,(some dead batteries) lol. Leave stock alone and find the solution to your the problem.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

Todd, first at all, there has been aggresive ramps on Stocker cams since day one, even when the rules were more restrictive. Dwell lobes have been available since day one. The aggresiveness of the ramp is limited and dictated by the lifter size.

Who said people are asking for Jesel rockers??? What people are asking is for your standard stud/roller rocker type aluminum rockers. The problem with current rocker arms is that the replacement parts are junk. To save money, made of inferior materials and processes, made overseas, by companies run by accountants ( with the exeption of Julie Jordan :) ) and not engineers.

I know this for a fact since I have done lots of metallurgy analysis on current replacement and early OEM rockers arms and there is a big difference. I have applied all kinds of coatings and aerospace treatments to stamped rocker arms; they still fail because the inferior materials used in the stamping process does not allow for a uniform metal thickness in the rocker arm, especially in the pushrod cup area, which happens to be the weak spot. You do not need to have big spring pressures to have a replacement stamped rocker arm fail; I have seen them fail with as little as 125 lbs seat pressure.

The rocker arms sold by Holroyd, are heavy duty pieces design for truck and industrail engine applications. Prior to the Holroyd parts, many racers were also experiencing rocker arm failures, including small block Chevies, AMC's, Oldsmobiles and other makes.

Like Jeff, I know of many racers looking for old OEM rocker arms at wrecking yards. By the way, your comment about Jeff Lee not having a say was out of line. Jeff spent lots of money on his AMX while racing in Stock eliminator, and probably one of the reasons why he switched to Super Stock was due to having engine failures caused by rocker arms. Therefore, he has the right to share his opinion on this matter.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

This is what I said

"Besides Jeff, you race super stock you dont have a dog in this fight anymore. I wouldn't think it would matter to you".

This is what the NO NAME SSdiv6 guy said I said.
"By the way, your comment about Jeff Lee not having a say was out of line. "

He can have a say, I wondered why he is lobbying for this stuff when he left the class. I was asking a question, thats all.
We don't need roller rockers, guys need to quit taking the easy way out, and lobbying for rule changes. I redlighted in a Heads up race this weekend, should I lobby for pro tree on heads up so I don't redlight??? no I have to work harder as a driver to fix that.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

Jesel rockers is where it will wind up, and guys will bitch that it makes no difference.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

By the way, did I ever said I was lobbying for roller rockers? All I did was state the facts of why there are rocker arm failures. Jeff is still involved with lots of stockers. Give NHRA some credit, if they were to approve roller rockers, they would never approve a shaft rocker configuration for an application that never had one from the factory. There are only very few shaft rocker configuration engines already running the class such as the Mopars and Buicks. By the way, I have dyno'd engines with both stamped and roller rockers and the power gains are insignificant or null. The main issue is reliability.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

If they were to approve Jesels, the difference will not be in performance, it will be in the wallet: $$$$$

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

"By the way, I have dyno'd engines with both stamped and roller rockers and the power gains are insignificant or null. The main issue is reliability."

Right, and when we have 8800 RPM big blocks in A and AA we will need bigger tires and other things. Do you think with roller rockers guys will run 350 on the seat and 7 or 800 open on there valve train? I'm sure of it. You will see more power. Back in the day the guys that ran good in stock and superstock were the ones that could look at the rule book work within it and bend the rules when they had to, and make the stuff fast with what they had. Not many people could do it. Now you have a class of people who when they get stuck on some problem, or run out of talent trying to make something run they cry for rule changes. If this stuff is too hard or expensive maybe the class isn't for you. Bracket racing is alive and well, GO DO IT. Don't lobby for rule changes because you can't make your situation any better.

Jeff is a good guy, and has a cool car. But his hobby seems to be to try to get rule changes in our class when he is not racing. He got us aftermarket Disc brakes, he was trying to get Solid lifters for everyone because it's just better. Now he is in Super Stock, I don't hear much about rule changes in that class, but still for ours. this stuff has to stop. Draw a line in the sand already and lets race.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

Todd...why do you isolate this to A and AA class big blocks? I think you have a long ways to learn about race engines. The big blocks already have a great rocker arm. The racers are already using high spring pressures and the aftermarket rocker arms does not have nothing to do with allowing the use of more spring pressure. When you have an engine with hydraulic lifters, you are limited on how much spring pressure you can run even when you run Schubecks or Sherman lifters.

Are you selective in reading posts? Earlier I made it clear the problem is the QUALITY of OEM replacement rocker arms. I also shared that I have seen rocker arms failures with springs pressures of 125/290 lbs.

By the way...I did not know that Jeff Lee had the power to get rules changed...I will have a talk with him to get some rules changed!!! By the way, there were many that advocated and requested aftermarket disc brakes and the decision was made for safety reasons. The higher classs cars are running speeds that the OEM brakes were not designed for. The same for wheelie bars; after the DeArmond and other similar incidents, NHRA did not have a choice than to allow the wheelie bars.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

No, you WON"T be able to raise spring pressures, UNLESS you get stud girdles to go with the roller rockers. The 7/16" stud will STILL be the weak point. Note that the ONLY difference between the Holroyd setup and the older 7/16" stuff is the STUD DIAMETER. The rocker is made of the same material, the same thickness, and the same heat treat. In fact, the rocker ball itself is thinner, and material is REMOVED where the ball rides in the rocker to allow for the larger stud. We've done some serious testing, and we've also done full failure analysis on failed rockers. The fast 396 cars already turn 8200 or more now. We already run enough spring pressure, we can control all the profile you can generate for an 0.842" lifter. Put roller rockers on a fast big block car and watch the studs start breaking, unless you get stud girdles as well. It doesn't matter whether the stud or the rocker breaks, the damage will be close to the same.

Shaft rocker engines are a different situation all together, especially if they have large diameter lifters. With the rules allowing big pushrods, if you allow roller rockers, they'll be on 8620 bar stock shafts. Put that setup on top of large diameter lifters, combined with big or multiple carburetors and you'll REALLY see something happen.

I hate to see racers scrounging for used parts, I don't want to see cars parked because you just can't get any parts. But roller rockers are not the solution, at least not one that we can live with.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

Jeff + SSDiv 6,

Do we really need more changes now ? I have to agree with Todd, why did we vote for Reps? If NHRA or the players are going to continue to change the rules.. Lets stop all the rule changes and give the reps a chance to do something... Lets start to do a better job of enforcing the current rules , then see if we need some changes.. Between heads, pushrods, carbs, intakes and everything else that's been changed resently, I think we need a break and step back and look at what we are doing to stock... Do we really need all those aftermarket
parts, or are trying to make things too easy ?

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

Dave, like I said before, I am not advocating the allowance of roller rockers. All I did was explain the reason why the request is being made by others that are experiencing rocker arm failures and the technical reasons why the rocker arms are failing. The quality of replacement parts is no longer there. With the globalization of the economy, and the manufacturing of parts overseas, we are getting inferior replacement/over the counter parts. As an example, how many good lifter companies are there left? Look at the amount of camshaft failures many are experiencing even with street use camshafts. That is the reason why I pay more for parts: I would rather pay 3 times more and get a quality Crower rod than a CAT or Eagle rod made in China.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

I sure would like to think I could pick up the phone to Glendora and get rules changed to my liking but clearly, that is not the case. Regarding the disk break rule, I may have been more vocal (publicly), but many other's, including the manufacturer's, were for it. My 125 MPH D/S car and other's approaching or exceeding 130 MPH were quickly finding the limitations of OEM brakes. Would you suggest they were going to fast and just needed to slow down? I originally raced with drum brakes then progressed to disk brakes / drum (OEM) on my car. I could tell in the shut-down area more than the track when the engine was making more power, every two MPH increment made it noticeably harder to slow down the car. And when you are finally pumping the brakes to the last turn-off, keeping in mind trhere's a line between slowing from a high speed and not glazing / warping the brakes, you realize change may be neccessary.

Regarding solid lifters in Stock, I sure was vocal on that issue. Keep in mind I feel I have a right to be as vocal as I choose as I'm a member and racer in NHRA and this is a public forum. I know some feel this is just a great place for race kudo's and birthday club greeting's, but I see it as a place to voice concern's or implement opinion on change.
So on solid lifter's....nobody has yet to explain to me why it's OK to allow $500-$850 lifter's in Stock that are "quasi-hydraulic" (meaning they do nothing in resemblance to a hydraulic other than have a mere .015" plunger travel) when a $79.00 set of solid lifters will perform identically at a 962.50% savings to the racer. No, Jeff wasn't after easier or cheaper as I had already been down that road and spent thousands on various Sherman, Scubeck, Chilled-iron and modified OEM style lifters. I was after being reasonable and using logic to make it easier on everybody else.

As mentioned previously on this thread, every aspect of the Stock valve-train has been upgraded to acceptable by NHRA except the rocker arm. But hold on. That's not entirely true. Chrysler racers have enjoyed the use of Isky ductile iron adjustable rockers for years on all V-8 engines. Ford Clevland & 429/460 racers have been using roller bearing rocker folcrum's in Stock for years. Both examples having never been assembly line installed as an OEM part as required by NHRA. Not that I'm aware of anyway. Following the logic which allowed Isky rockers on the MOPAR's, the SBF (289/302/351W) racer's should be allowed the use of SVT aluminum roller rockers in Stock as it was an OEM rocker on the '93 Cobra engine. Could the same argument apply to the SBC as the LT4 and LS family utilizes roller rockers?
So there are two issues as far as I am concerned. One is equality. If MOPAR racer's enjoy superior non-OEM rockers, then so should everybody else. Second, if NHRA allows basically a stock-lift Superstock valve-train from the rocker arm on down, then finish the job. (Alan, I believe the Holyrod stud is Stainless or other quality material). In my opinion it should be all stock (valve-train) or all modified at the racer's discretion with limitations that the installation resemble OEM construction, i.e., any stud mounted or shaft rocker arm as applicable to OEM installation standards.
And for those that have found the magic solution already, great, good job. The proposal is not that roller rockers should be mandatory, just an alternative. Same with taperd, large diameter pushrods, and guide-plates, and beehive springs, and Schubecks....

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

The Isky ductile iron adjustable rockers have no advantage over the stock Max rockers. Both measure around 1.47. I have two sets of these and still run the same 1963 rockers I got with a stock Max engine in 72, Paul.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

Don't forget your MOPAR buddies that also get to run the Isky parts as a replacement to their 318/340/360 engines factory equipped with stamped steel rockers. I think you would agree there is a considerable durability advantage in using those Isky's over stamped rockers.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

Jeff, Holroyd's rockers are STOCK GM, the studs and adjusters are similar in material to the ARP rocker studs.

We can get by with the 7/16" stuff, there are even some fast cars still using 7/16" rockers. What we broke 2 years ago at Gainesville was an ARP rocker stud, it broke at the base of the threads. I was going to upgrade to the ARP Pro Series studs when a friend turned me on to Holroyd's stuff.

The rockers themselves will still fail the same as the 7/16" rockers, ask a couple of the real fast guys.

If you are willing to replace the rocker studs often enough (the ARP Pro Series studs are $100 or so) you can run the stock diameter studs and rockers. You MAY lose a little to deflection.

NHRA allows all engines to run aftermarket studs, and even convert to screw in studs when they were not originally equipped.

Some big block Chevy high performance engines came with 7/16" pushrods. We (as well as most I know) currently use 7/16" straight pushrods and GM guide plates.

Again, I'd LOVE to see a solution for the rocker problem so that guys with the less popular stuff could go buy good parts for a fair price. I DO NOT want to see cars parked.

However, allowing roller rockers will absolutely bring about serious unintended consequences, for the reasons I outlined earlier.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

As long as they do not allow shaft type rocker arms in applications that were not OEM configuration, and they do not allow stud girdles, then there will not be any measurable gain in power, just reliability.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

I do not agree. If you take an engine equipped with stock shaft rockers and large diameter lifters, and replace the stock shafts and rockers with 8620 or 8740 shafts and big roller rockers, you can EASILY exceed what can be achieved with stud mounted rockers and no stud girdle, even WITH roller rockers. Otherwise, there's be no market for stud girdles, and there'd be no shaft rocker conversions.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

Alan, there are only a few applications that use the shaft rockers: Mopars, Ford FE and Buick. The Mopars, both big block and small block, and the Ford FE's, are already running aftermarket adjustable iron rockers made by Isky or Crane. They are not stamped rockers like most OEM configuration. For Mopar applications, you can get a hard-chromed shaft, made of a heavier material that will not flex, at your local Mopar dealer over the counter. The Isky and Crane ductile iron rocker arms do not flex.

By the way, both the Mopar and Ford FE's, already have a big OEM lifters, and they also are fast.

http://www.iskycams.com/ART/products/69/384L.png
http://www.cranecams.com/include/sho...eading&id=1089

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

I'm well aware of that. In fact, going back a few years, I was working on a Tunnel Port in a Shelby, and I learned VERY quickly about the strength difference between the stock replacement style rockers and the aftermarket roller rockers. There is a major difference, at least in my experience.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

So why do you need to spend 15,000 on a motor.There are a lot of racers that don,t have that much in there car.

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

I was refering to competitive A/B/C cars. Sorry for not being specific.

What movie was that? "There is nothing stock about a stock car..." LOL

Re: Roller Rockers in Stock
 

And some of those guys are the guys that bitch when there car isn't fast. They don't work on them and they want rules changed so it is easier for them to compete with the guys that put in double the effort and money. If you take the time to learn and work hard you can build a combo to run fast for less, but if you know nothing and don't want to learn then you are going nowhere.